I have been having an ongoing debate with some random Christian that I met on IRC months ago.

Here is in, in it’s entirity, after the jump.

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000000666 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000000646 (11/20/2008 11:11:30 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: you need to tell me why it’s mindless silly and ignorant
(11/20/2008 11:11:53 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: you need to tell me why we should advance human culture
(11/20/2008 11:12:09 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: I want to know what standards you’re using
(11/20/2008 11:13:41 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: what standards of reasoning one should adopt
(11/20/2008 11:14:04 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: alluding to logic or reason just begs the question
(8:54:44 AM) david: hi

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000010977 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000010957 (3:10:56 PM) Sola Fide: hi!
(3:10:57 PM) Sola Fide:
(3:11:07 PM) david: hI THERE
(3:11:09 PM) david: Oops
(3:11:10 PM) david: Hi there
(3:12:29 PM) Sola Fide: are you using MIRC now?
(3:12:41 PM) david: No I am not
(3:13:35 PM) Sola Fide: have you taken philosophy of religion by any chance?
(3:13:46 PM) david: Sure
(3:14:49 PM) david: Saying that you believe rumors over tangible facts, observations, reasoning, and logic are two different things.
(3:14:52 PM) david: You have to admit that.
(3:15:10 PM) david: There is no tangible proof of God
(3:15:17 PM) david: No facts behind God
(3:17:55 PM) Sola Fide: what is defined as tangible
(3:17:56 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:21:53 PM) david: This is stupid right?
(3:21:54 PM) david: I mean
(3:21:59 PM) david: How is God tangible to you
(3:22:13 PM) david: How is the christian God tangible to everyone?
(3:22:16 PM) david: Explain it
(3:24:20 PM) Sola Fide: this is not about empirical claims
(3:24:34 PM) Sola Fide: it’s about your presuppositions and beliefs
(3:24:43 PM) david: No
(3:24:48 PM) david: That’s what you are making it about
(3:24:51 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:24:53 PM) david: I am saying a cat is a cat is a cat
(3:24:56 PM) david: Always
(3:25:00 PM) david: Just because you don’t want it to me a cat
(3:25:03 PM) david: It is still a cat
(3:25:09 PM) david: Period.
(3:25:31 PM) david: No amount of wishing or praying, or voodoo, or alchemy will ever make the cat into something else
(3:25:35 PM) Sola Fide: so you claim that as an absolute?
(3:25:47 PM) david: Then sure yes
(3:25:53 PM) david: Now I am an empiricist
(3:25:56 PM) david: Great
(3:25:59 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know “cat” is unchanging?
(3:26:14 PM) david: Because I am not IGNORANT to the world
(3:26:19 PM) david: My eyes are open and I am alive
(3:26:22 PM) david: I can see the cat
(3:26:23 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(3:26:25 PM) david: and hear the cat
(3:26:27 PM) david: And smell the cat
(3:26:35 PM) david: and I can dream about the cat
(3:26:39 PM) Sola Fide: an empiricists only experiences particulars
(3:26:43 PM) Sola Fide: not universals
(3:26:46 PM) david: And long after the cat has died I can draw the cat
(3:27:16 PM) david: I don’t know what we are arguing about
(3:27:21 PM) david: My question is
(3:27:25 PM) david: Why does there have to be a God
(3:27:29 PM) david: Your answer is
(3:27:32 PM) david: IN MY EYES
(3:27:42 PM) david: I am asking you WHY, In all eyes, does there have to be
(3:28:00 PM) Sola Fide: I believe God created all things
(3:28:14 PM) Sola Fide: things have their own identity in virtue of God
(3:28:15 PM) david: Yes but why
(3:28:20 PM) david: Have you seen him make things?
(3:28:22 PM) Sola Fide: not because I observe things
(3:28:25 PM) david: Have you seen him?
(3:28:40 PM) Sola Fide: have you “seen” empiricism?
(3:28:45 PM) david: Yes everyday
(3:28:51 PM) Sola Fide: where’s the evidence for empiricism
(3:28:51 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:28:58 PM) david: A CAT IS A CAT IS CAT
(3:29:02 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(3:29:03 PM) david: 1 + 1 always equals 2
(3:29:14 PM) Sola Fide: that’s not an empirical statement
(3:29:20 PM) Sola Fide: it’s analytical
(3:29:37 PM) david: If we don’t get “quasi-new-wave-my brain is god-dig deep within and there is no universe” on everything
(3:30:09 PM) david: The only thing you proof by saying “Where’s the evidence if blah blah”
(3:30:26 PM) david: Is the equation that religious truths = sciencetific truths
(3:30:29 PM) david: Which is not true
(3:31:06 PM) david: God created the universe.
(3:31:10 PM) david: Show me proof.
(3:31:15 PM) Sola Fide: if everything must be tested empirically… test empiricism itself empirically
(3:31:30 PM) david: What you are saying makes no sense.
(3:31:40 PM) david: It is illogical circular game that christians play
(3:31:45 PM) Sola Fide: what you are saying just BEGS the question
(3:31:54 PM) david: Ask the question though
(3:32:03 PM) david: What questions do facts create?
(3:32:07 PM) david: It makes NO SENSE
(3:32:42 PM) Sola Fide: I like Socratic method
(3:32:47 PM) Sola Fide: start with questions
(3:32:50 PM) Sola Fide: not with answers
(3:33:33 PM) Sola Fide: “facts” is really an ambiguous terms philosophically speaking
(3:33:36 PM) david: That’s what Science is all about.
(3:33:51 PM) david: Religions is the antithesis of questioning anything.
(3:34:30 PM) Sola Fide: religion still addresses age old philosophical issues
(3:34:47 PM) david: It does nothing good.
(3:34:49 PM) Sola Fide: metaphysics, logic, epistemology and tethics
(3:34:56 PM) Sola Fide: what is good?
(3:35:00 PM) david: Fuck you
(3:35:02 PM) david: THis is pointless
(3:35:04 PM) david: Bye
(3:35:06 PM) Sola Fide: wow
(3:35:10 PM) david: You are an idiot.
(3:35:16 PM) Sola Fide: ad homs
(3:35:20 PM) david: Alright
(3:35:21 PM) david: Bye
(3:35:32 PM) Sola Fide: fine
(3:35:44 PM) Sola Fide: I respect that you don’t like to continue
(3:35:51 PM) Sola Fide: but using ad homs doesn’t help your case
(3:36:09 PM) david: It’s not interesting or intellectual when you just ask WHAT IS GOOD
(3:36:11 PM) david: WHAT IS TRUTH
(3:36:14 PM) david: Its circular
(3:36:18 PM) david: INDEFINATELY
(3:36:37 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(3:36:44 PM) Sola Fide: people view truth is all kinds of ways
(3:37:07 PM) Sola Fide: why should your view of it be the correct one
(3:37:08 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:37:17 PM) david: No.
(3:37:22 PM) david: Wrong you are wrong
(3:37:27 PM) david: The question is wrong.
(3:37:27 PM) Sola Fide: it’s really not a stupid question
(3:37:30 PM) david: The answer is wrong.
(3:37:37 PM) david: There is one ABSOLOUTE truth.
(3:37:41 PM) Sola Fide: begs the question
(3:37:49 PM) david: TO everything.
(3:37:50 PM) Sola Fide: on what basis is it wrong?
(3:37:55 PM) david: haha
(3:38:10 PM) david: It is wrong because there is an absolute truth for everything.
(3:38:39 PM) Sola Fide: well that’s your belief
(3:38:47 PM) david: You don’t believe that?
(3:38:50 PM) Sola Fide: I do
(3:38:51 PM) david: Than your nontheist
(3:38:52 PM) david: ic
(3:39:34 PM) Sola Fide: what I don’t see as coherent is that how someone who is an empiricist can believe in absolutes
(3:40:13 PM) david: We don’t need to define everything you know
(3:40:43 PM) Sola Fide: shouldn’t we strive to be consistent
(3:40:44 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:41:21 PM) david: Fine
(3:41:35 PM) david: I am an empiricist that possibly believes in absolutes
(3:41:41 PM) david: Who cares? What does it mean
(3:42:03 PM) Sola Fide: you have to face the problem of induction
(3:43:29 PM) david: What is the problem of induction
(3:44:16 PM) Sola Fide: going from particulars to universals
(3:44:26 PM) Sola Fide: the future will be like the past
(3:44:36 PM) david: You have to solve the same problem
(3:44:42 PM) Sola Fide: yep
(3:44:54 PM) david: So its moot to talk about
(3:45:01 PM) Sola Fide: why?
(3:45:09 PM) david: Can you solve it?
(3:45:44 PM) Sola Fide: I believe in a sovereign God that controls nature in a lawlike fashion
(3:46:15 PM) david: I believe in a natural world created at the beginning of time when all the natural laws were established.
(3:46:42 PM) Sola Fide: natural laws came about ex nihilo?
(3:46:55 PM) david: God cam about ex nihilo?
(3:47:09 PM) Sola Fide: I believe God is eternal
(3:47:38 PM) david: Time is eternal and infinite
(3:48:00 PM) david: Natural laws were formed by the universe
(3:48:26 PM) Sola Fide: how did the universe come about?
(3:48:43 PM) david: From a singularity
(3:48:48 PM) david: Before that something else exitsed
(3:48:52 PM) david: That we don’t know about
(3:49:10 PM) Sola Fide: even if I grant that it started with the singularity
(3:49:28 PM) Sola Fide: why should laws come out from it?
(3:49:32 PM) david: OUR universe started as a singularity
(3:49:39 PM) david: Oh
(3:49:44 PM) david: Can you suck air in
(3:49:54 PM) david: and attract dust, and other floating things
(3:50:11 PM) david: The universe formed in such a way to make things lik gravity happen
(3:50:15 PM) david: if it formed a different way
(3:50:25 PM) david: gravity would act differently, or not at all
(3:52:20 PM) david: all your trying to prove is there as to be some personality that made the laws
(3:52:24 PM) david: instead of them being random
(3:52:30 PM) david: which is your problem
(3:52:30 PM) Sola Fide: why should it form anything
(3:52:31 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:52:40 PM) david: it might not
(3:52:51 PM) david: and that’s how awesome the world is
(3:53:01 PM) Sola Fide: so it’s really random?
(3:53:07 PM) david: right
(3:53:16 PM) david: so hypotheically it could be god
(3:53:17 PM) Sola Fide: that’s not a danger to science?
(3:53:30 PM) david: why would it be?
(3:53:39 PM) david: at a singular physics, and all natural laws break down
(3:53:46 PM) david: this is well known
(3:54:28 PM) david: I belief this because it is what the culmination of human research has proven so far
(3:54:39 PM) david: You belief what you believe because it says so in one book
(3:55:31 PM) Sola Fide: I would argue that one must assume the uniformity of nature BEFORE doing science
(3:56:18 PM) david: and I would argue that one would have to throw out all percuptual measurement of the natural world to believe in god
(3:58:08 PM) Sola Fide: science is based on beliefs
(3:58:13 PM) Sola Fide: that’s the issue
(3:58:51 PM) david: Testable
(3:58:53 PM) david: Beleifs
(3:59:00 PM) Sola Fide: in order to have knowledge of anything you need a set of beliefs
(3:59:07 PM) david: Okay
(3:59:13 PM) david: And mine are superior to yours
(3:59:25 PM) david: Yours are based on one item
(3:59:37 PM) david: Mine are based on a cummulative work of the entire history of man
(3:59:53 PM) david: I means it undeniable
(3:59:58 PM) david: You take your senses
(4:00:01 PM) david: Look at the world
(4:00:06 PM) david: Does this fit a pattern
(4:00:15 PM) david: Than the mathematical model for that is true
(4:00:32 PM) david: Or is as good as it can be
(4:00:35 PM) david: Until we make it better
(4:00:42 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know your senses are connected to the natural world?
(4:00:55 PM) david: Because I am not ignorant.
(4:01:17 PM) david: How do you know they aren’t?
(4:01:20 PM) david: A book told you?

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000000395 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000000375 (11/21/2008 4:03:32 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: because I believe God reveals what He created to us
(11/21/2008 4:08:06 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: we’ll end the discussion here
(11/21/2008 4:08:18 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca: I gotta write a paper

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000000534 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000000514 (4:08:45 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(4:09:33 PM) david: Humble Greetings
(4:15:56 PM) david: Hello?
(4:16:07 PM) Sola Fide: me still here
(4:16:16 PM) david: How are you
(4:16:32 PM) Sola Fide: good
(4:16:35 PM) Sola Fide: you
(4:16:36 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:16:40 PM) david: I am well
(4:16:42 PM) Sola Fide: I just finished my exams
(4:16:55 PM) david: AWESOME

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000009977 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000009957 (3:27:32 PM) david: Hi
(3:29:06 PM) Sola Fide: hi!
(3:29:19 PM) david: God died last night
(3:29:25 PM) Sola Fide: ???
(3:29:30 PM) david: I know
(3:29:42 PM) Sola Fide: why last nite?
(3:29:56 PM) david: I summoned the devil and it didn’t work
(3:30:26 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t that assume that you’re sovereign?
(3:30:52 PM) david: HUH
(3:31:30 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t have to be summoning the devil
(3:31:49 PM) Sola Fide: why not have God make you float in midair
(3:31:50 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:32:03 PM) david: HUH
(3:32:06 PM) Sola Fide: you’re simply assuming that God must do what you want Him to do
(3:32:12 PM) david: No
(3:32:17 PM) david: I summoned the devil
(3:32:19 PM) david: Not god
(3:32:22 PM) david: And it didn’t work
(3:32:34 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t have to
(3:32:41 PM) david: But I did
(3:32:47 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that all those who are not in Christ
(3:32:55 PM) Sola Fide: are held captive by the devil
(3:33:04 PM) david: I summoned him top earth
(3:33:32 PM) Sola Fide: God is sovereign over all things
(3:33:38 PM) Sola Fide: even over the devil
(3:34:18 PM) david: Im just fucking around
(3:34:30 PM) david: But god is soveriegn over anything
(3:34:41 PM) david: and it’s a lower case g
(3:35:08 PM) Sola Fide:
(3:35:25 PM) david: People like you ruin the world
(3:35:34 PM) Sola Fide: really?
(3:35:36 PM) david: Yes
(3:35:45 PM) david: You just said:
(3:35:45 PM) david: (3:32:47 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that all those who are not in Christ
(3:32:55 PM) Sola Fide: are held captive by the devil
(3:35:49 PM) david: That is fucked up
(3:35:51 PM) david: and prejudice
(3:36:03 PM) Sola Fide: do you believe that people believe lies?
(3:36:17 PM) david: Yes
(3:36:32 PM) Sola Fide: you just proved my point
(3:36:42 PM) david: No.
(3:36:53 PM) david: Your point is that by being godless
(3:36:59 PM) david: I have something to do with the devil
(3:37:02 PM) david: I don’t
(3:37:11 PM) Sola Fide: you THINK you don’t
(3:37:22 PM) david: No.\
(3:37:32 PM) david: I don’t think I do or don’tI don’t think you do or don’t either
(3:37:35 PM) david: You think I do
(3:37:38 PM) david: Your the only one.
(3:37:38 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not thinking of the devil as primarily as some supernatural power
(3:38:07 PM) Sola Fide: I’m thinking that when people deny God
(3:38:13 PM) Sola Fide: then they must believe a lie
(3:38:23 PM) david: No one told me a lie
(3:38:29 PM) david: Unless god did
(3:38:43 PM) david: You can’t believe a lie without knwoing about it
(3:38:45 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(3:39:01 PM) Sola Fide: everyone on this planet thinks they are right
(3:39:21 PM) Sola Fide: especially about matters of ultimate truth
(3:39:42 PM) david: No
(3:39:47 PM) david: Scientists don’t know
(3:39:51 PM) david: They are trying to figure it out
(3:39:54 PM) david: YOU know
(3:39:58 PM) david: Your the one that knows
(3:42:05 PM) Sola Fide: now you’re arguing like an extreme skeptic
(3:42:17 PM) david: What do you mean?
(3:42:27 PM) david: You said I know
(3:42:31 PM) david: But I don’t
(3:42:45 PM) Sola Fide: and you believe that I don’t?
(3:43:00 PM) david: I believe that you don’t what
(3:43:15 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t know anything really
(3:43:36 PM) Sola Fide: no absolutes?
(3:43:43 PM) david: I kn ow that NO human knows anything
(3:44:03 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that?
(3:44:10 PM) Sola Fide: that’s sounds absolute
(3:44:37 PM) david: You are just an idiot
(3:44:43 PM) Sola Fide: “you can’t know anything” is such a self-contradictory statement
(3:44:44 PM) david: When you talk like this
(3:44:49 PM) david: It can be borken down into
(3:44:49 PM) Sola Fide: nice ad hominem
(3:44:50 PM) Sola Fide:
(3:44:57 PM) david: Its not adhom
(3:45:01 PM) Sola Fide: yes it is
(3:45:02 PM) david: Its you seriously being and idiot
(3:45:04 PM) david: No.
(3:45:08 PM) david: Its like if I said this
(3:45:10 PM) david: as,ghksdghagfdsadgf
(3:45:18 PM) david: I don’t expect you to understand
(3:45:23 PM) david: So if you respond
(3:45:29 PM) david: That makes no fucking sense
(3:45:33 PM) david: Its NOT ad hom
(3:45:50 PM) Sola Fide: using the f word doesn’t help your case
(3:46:02 PM) david: Okay well it’s just a word
(3:46:06 PM) david: Do you want me to define it
(3:46:12 PM) david: So you can better understand
(3:46:58 PM) Sola Fide: I think you need to calm down in order to continue having a meaningful discussion
(3:47:11 PM) david: I am perfectly calm
(3:47:16 PM) david: You are nonsensical
(3:47:20 PM) david: What is the point of saying that
(3:47:44 PM) david: That no one knows wether anyone knows anything even themselves
(3:48:12 PM) david: And that statement itself could or could not be true
(3:48:20 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:48:28 PM) Sola Fide: then don’t hold to it
(3:48:42 PM) david: Well you bring it up every time
(3:48:50 PM) Sola Fide: you alluded to it
(3:48:56 PM) Sola Fide: the point is
(3:49:01 PM) david: Absolute, as in Absolute this this universe
(3:49:02 PM) david: Okay?
(3:49:10 PM) david: Time started at the big bang
(3:49:15 PM) Sola Fide: there is no such thing as epistemological neutrality
(3:49:16 PM) david: Before that there was no time
(3:49:23 PM) david: So there can’t be real absolutes of copurse
(3:50:02 PM) Sola Fide: out from nothing came about absolutes
(3:50:03 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:50:08 PM) david: No
(3:50:09 PM) Sola Fide: is that rational?
(3:50:18 PM) david: I never said out of nothing
(3:50:23 PM) david: That’s what you are saying
(3:50:38 PM) Sola Fide: what was before the big bang?
(3:50:43 PM) david: Who knows
(3:50:48 PM) Sola Fide: assum nothing
(3:50:51 PM) david: No
(3:50:57 PM) Sola Fide: assume what then?
(3:51:02 PM) david: Assume that I do not know
(3:51:05 PM) Sola Fide: right
(3:51:17 PM) Sola Fide: which means assume “nothing”
(3:51:33 PM) david: That is not logical
(3:51:42 PM) Sola Fide: that’s what it means
(3:51:47 PM) david: I don’t know what I am going to do tonight
(3:51:51 PM) david: That doesn’t mean im doing nothing
(3:52:07 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t know what the future will be like
(3:52:17 PM) Sola Fide: do you make assumptions about it
(3:52:18 PM) Sola Fide: YES
(3:52:19 PM) david: Just because early astronomrs didn’t know what was in outer space, didn’t mean it was nothing
(3:52:22 PM) david: they found oput
(3:52:22 PM) Sola Fide: and about the past
(3:53:00 PM) Sola Fide: to say you don’t know in your statements really means
(3:53:03 PM) Sola Fide: you CAN’T know
(3:53:08 PM) david: YET
(3:54:09 PM) Sola Fide: I’m assuming that you’re basing your conclusions on the scientific method
(3:54:16 PM) david: True
(3:54:19 PM) Sola Fide: which actually say NOTHING about the future
(3:54:29 PM) david: What?
(3:54:48 PM) Sola Fide: because of the problem of induction
(3:55:32 PM) david: I think
(3:55:35 PM) david: It is safe to say
(3:55:41 PM) david: That with the current state of the universe
(3:55:46 PM) david: There is no problem with induction
(3:55:47 PM) david: Now
(3:55:52 PM) david: Before the universe existed
(3:55:57 PM) david: Or after it ceases to exists
(3:56:02 PM) david: Or if the universe changes
(3:56:06 PM) david: I can see there being a problem
(3:57:36 PM) Sola Fide: have you ever read about the problem of induction from David Hume?
(3:58:10 PM) david: Fuck
(3:58:12 PM) david: I get it
(3:58:23 PM) david: Who know man
(3:58:27 PM) david: Maybe we will find a planet
(3:58:33 PM) david: That has a some crazzzyyyy asss garvity
(3:58:40 PM) david: And we will have to change all our theories
(3:58:40 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:58:41 PM) david: FINE
(3:58:44 PM) david: Change the theories
(3:58:48 PM) Sola Fide: dude
(3:58:59 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know the current theories will hold for the future?
(3:59:10 PM) Sola Fide: on this mudball call Earth
(3:59:12 PM) david: By continually testing them?
(3:59:18 PM) david: How do you know God isn’t dead?
(3:59:22 PM) david: You don’t
(3:59:28 PM) Sola Fide: how many iterations is needed
(3:59:29 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:59:44 PM) Sola Fide: without God I can’t know anything
(4:00:00 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t “prove” God
(4:00:14 PM) Sola Fide: because God is the starting point of my epistemology
(4:00:24 PM) david: It’s stupid
(4:00:35 PM) Sola Fide: you’re starting point is empiricism
(4:00:44 PM) david: No
(4:00:48 PM) david: There is no starting point
(4:00:52 PM) Sola Fide: wow
(4:00:58 PM) Sola Fide: extreme skepticism
(4:00:59 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:01:11 PM) david: No
(4:01:15 PM) david: You are saying that yours is god
(4:01:19 PM) david: Anmd god gives all knowledge
(4:01:26 PM) david: I have nothing that gives me knowledge
(4:01:29 PM) david: I have to find it
(4:01:33 PM) david: Therefore there is no POINT
(4:01:45 PM) Sola Fide: how do you find it
(4:01:45 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:01:52 PM) david: Observation of the world
(4:01:56 PM) david: The same way you do
(4:02:00 PM) Sola Fide: empiricism
(4:02:17 PM) david: Maybe
(4:02:25 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:02:33 PM) Sola Fide: I gotta go
(4:02:39 PM) Sola Fide: it was a nice chat
(4:02:41 PM) david: Seeya
(4:02:53 PM) Sola Fide: notwithstanding the foul language
(4:02:59 PM) david: Get over it
(4:03:03 PM) Sola Fide: heh
(4:03:08 PM) Sola Fide: later
(4:03:08 PM) david: Have a nice day

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000004935 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000004915 (3:36:35 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:36:50 PM) david: How’s it going
(3:36:59 PM) Sola Fide: good
(3:37:00 PM) Sola Fide: u?
(3:37:08 PM) david: Pretty good
(3:37:21 PM) david: I think I figured out my argument
(3:37:34 PM) david: And my mindset/belief system/understanding of the universe
(3:39:29 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:39:42 PM) david: Let me see
(3:40:16 PM) david: My premises are that,
A.) We live in physical world.
(3:40:38 PM) david: B.) All physical things can’t be observed in someway by humans
(3:41:17 PM) david: C.) Anything that is not physical, and does not physically this universe does not exist to me
(3:41:36 PM) david: physically effect this universe*
(3:41:45 PM) david: God damn it
(3:41:49 PM) david: Let me type all that again
(3:43:06 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:49:46 PM) david: A.) We live in a physical universe
B.) All members of a physical universe must be physical
C.) If a member is physical it can be observed by humans
D.) If a member is not physical it cannot be observed by humans
E.) If a non-physical member effects this universe physically it can be understood to be physical though it is not
F.) If a non-physical member can not effect this universe, it doesn’t exist to other physical member of this universe
G.) If God exists he is either physical, and other physical member can observe him. Or he is non-physical.
G1.) If he is non-physical, but influences this universe in a physical way, we can understand him to be physical.
G2.) If he is non-physical and doesn’t influence the universe in a physical way, he doesn’t exist to physical members of this universe.

I believe these things to be true.

(3:49:56 PM) david: Now here is a contradiction
(3:50:25 PM) david: I don’t believe that non-physical members, can physically effect a physical universe.
(3:50:46 PM) david: So that negates even mentinioning E and G1
(3:51:30 PM) david: To me, this means. That if God exists, he has to be physical. Which almost defeats the whole purpose
(3:52:19 PM) Sola Fide: you realize that cause and effect relationships are not physical
(3:52:34 PM) Sola Fide: I guess you never read David Hume
(3:52:34 PM) david: Neither is love
(3:52:57 PM) david: Its like measuring darkness
(3:53:00 PM) david: You can’t
(3:53:11 PM) david: Darkness doesn’t exist.
(3:53:39 PM) Sola Fide: energy isn’t physical
(3:53:55 PM) david: Yes it is.
(3:54:05 PM) david: That silly.
(3:54:10 PM) david: It’s not magic.
(4:00:52 PM) Sola Fide: can you extend enrgy in space?
(4:01:02 PM) Sola Fide: matter is extended in space
(4:01:17 PM) david: So in energy
(4:01:20 PM) Sola Fide: how so?
(4:01:21 PM) david: In the form of light
(4:01:22 PM) david: heat
(4:01:23 PM) david: radiation
(4:01:36 PM) david: etc
(4:01:56 PM) Sola Fide: energy is non material
(4:02:21 PM) Sola Fide: it is not ontologically equivalent to matter
(4:02:32 PM) david: Never said it was.
(4:02:49 PM) Sola Fide: what is “force”?
(4:03:02 PM) Sola Fide: is it physical?
(4:03:09 PM) Sola Fide: surely not
(4:03:12 PM) david: Ok
(4:03:15 PM) david: You are talking about wind now?
(4:03:18 PM) david: I can’t see wind
(4:03:21 PM) david: So it doesn’t exist?
(4:03:22 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:03:39 PM) david: Wind is non-physical?
(4:03:44 PM) Sola Fide: there’s matter in wind
(4:03:58 PM) david: I don’t see any matter
(4:04:07 PM) Sola Fide: there a difference between immaterialism and things that we cannot see since they are very small
(4:04:19 PM) david: Can you see a quark?
(4:04:22 PM) david: Or dark matter?
(4:04:30 PM) david: Does that mean it not physical?
(4:04:36 PM) Sola Fide: can you see an atom?
(4:04:46 PM) david: Dark Matter.
(4:04:50 PM) david: Can you see Dark Matter?
(4:04:54 PM) Sola Fide: in any case
(4:05:04 PM) Sola Fide: there are things we believe that are not extended in space
(4:05:09 PM) Sola Fide: how about time?
(4:05:14 PM) Sola Fide: is time material?
(4:05:20 PM) Sola Fide: how about space?
(4:05:22 PM) david: Physical.
(4:05:25 PM) david: Not material
(4:05:28 PM) Sola Fide: time is physical?
(4:05:30 PM) Sola Fide: how so?
(4:06:10 PM) david: Physically, time is the word we use to measure the movement that physical objects take.
(4:06:17 PM) david: Just like darkness
(4:06:27 PM) david: Darkness isn’t a real thing
(4:06:31 PM) david: Just like time
(4:06:47 PM) Sola Fide: so time is a convention?
(4:06:53 PM) david: I would agree
(4:07:04 PM) Sola Fide: we can think it away?
(4:07:24 PM) david: Can you think darkness away?
(4:07:31 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:07:38 PM) david: Okay

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000009337 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000009317 (4:08:28 PM) david: What now?
(4:09:08 PM) Sola Fide: yes there’s a relationship between the immaterial and material
(4:09:34 PM) david: What is your point?
(4:11:19 PM) Sola Fide: you simply deny the existance of universals
(4:11:26 PM) Sola Fide: like Hume did
(4:12:24 PM) Sola Fide: empiricism is completely against metaphysical claims
(4:12:37 PM) david: Explain what a universal is please
(4:12:44 PM) david: And how I deny existance of them
(4:13:14 PM) Sola Fide: the empirical world is constantly changings
(4:14:06 PM) Sola Fide: that’s a problem for lawlike behaviour of the natural world
(4:14:41 PM) Sola Fide: if something is in constant change then it doesn’t have an identity
(4:14:57 PM) david: Who says this?
(4:15:00 PM) david: I mean
(4:15:01 PM) Sola Fide: Hume
(4:15:04 PM) david: Your saying lawless
(4:15:12 PM) david: But these are laws
(4:15:17 PM) Sola Fide: that’s what you believe
(4:15:22 PM) david: No no.
(4:15:26 PM) Sola Fide: read Hume
(4:15:27 PM) david: that’s a problem for lawlike behaviour of the natural world
(4:15:32 PM) david: if something is in constant change then it doesn’t have an identity
(4:15:35 PM) david: IS A LAW
(4:16:27 PM) Sola Fide: if I assume that everything is in flux like Hereclitus did
(4:16:41 PM) Sola Fide: then nothing is lawlike
(4:16:51 PM) david: See I disagree
(4:17:00 PM) david: Because the flux follows something
(4:17:08 PM) Sola Fide: flux has no pattern
(4:17:13 PM) david: That’s flawed
(4:17:17 PM) david: There would be nothing then.
(4:17:17 PM) Sola Fide: its not intelligible
(4:17:42 PM) Sola Fide: well
(4:17:49 PM) Sola Fide: there would only be appearances
(4:17:54 PM) Sola Fide: no essences
(4:18:23 PM) david: I guess
(4:18:25 PM) david: It is true
(4:18:27 PM) david: Really.
(4:18:30 PM) david: But I just don’t care.
(4:18:34 PM) Sola Fide: I know
(4:18:41 PM) Sola Fide: cause you don’t care about truth
(4:18:44 PM) Sola Fide: I do
(4:18:49 PM) david: No.
(4:18:53 PM) david: It’s like saying
(4:18:58 PM) david: Was there time before the big bang?
(4:19:03 PM) david: What existed before the big bang?
(4:19:05 PM) david: In all truth
(4:19:11 PM) david: And all actuality it doesn’t matter.
(4:19:20 PM) david: Now.
(4:19:27 PM) david: Sure, everything could be in flux.
(4:19:32 PM) david: But it doesn’t matter
(4:19:38 PM) david: We are physical beings.
(4:19:45 PM) david: That live in the physical part of this universe
(4:20:19 PM) david: We don’t have antennas that stick out of our head, that let us see into the met-physical or pan-dimensioanl realms of it.
(4:20:30 PM) david: Therefore, there is only one way to understand it.
(4:21:46 PM) Sola Fide: you would have to conced that the universe is non rational under empiricism
(4:21:59 PM) david: Explain.
(4:22:12 PM) Sola Fide: empircism itself isn’t empirical
(4:22:19 PM) Sola Fide: any -ism is not empirical
(4:22:38 PM) david: ?
(4:23:34 PM) Sola Fide: where’s the evidence for empiricism?
(4:23:53 PM) david: Because a baby doesn’t know shit until it learns stuff
(4:23:54 PM) david: ?
(4:24:11 PM) Sola Fide: you just accept it a priori
(4:24:23 PM) david: Ok don’t teach a baby anything
(4:24:29 PM) david: Does it possess any knowledge?
(4:24:52 PM) Sola Fide: don’t get me wrong
(4:25:09 PM) Sola Fide: eye ball experience is one way of knowing things
(4:25:22 PM) david: Tell me another way?
(4:25:23 PM) Sola Fide: but it cannot be the be all and end all
(4:25:30 PM) Sola Fide: since I’m a christian
(4:26:09 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that our sense experience is reliable due to God’s action in revealing His creation to us
(4:26:43 PM) david: So god-blessed empircism?
(4:27:01 PM) Sola Fide: God blesses our eyes so they can see
(4:27:09 PM) david: That’s what I am saying
(4:27:29 PM) Sola Fide: but you think that eye ball experience is the sole determining factor
(4:27:39 PM) Sola Fide: that’s quite a difference you know
(4:27:40 PM) david: Explain the difference
(4:27:46 PM) david: I see no difference
(4:27:54 PM) Sola Fide: its simple
(4:28:22 PM) Sola Fide: you will not accept anything as true unless it fits into your own experience
(4:28:30 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t adopt that standard
(4:28:41 PM) david: Ok
(4:28:44 PM) david: This is the problem
(4:28:49 PM) david: I don’t do that
(4:28:53 PM) david: It’s not unless
(4:28:56 PM) david: It’s UNTIL
(4:29:33 PM) david: You will not accept anything as true, unless it fits into a supernatural entities experience
(4:29:39 PM) david: And not just any
(4:29:41 PM) david: But a specific
(4:30:09 PM) david: You aren’t even open minded enough to say there could be a different god
(4:30:12 PM) david: Or a series of gods
(4:31:13 PM) Sola Fide: that’s a different issue
(4:31:27 PM) Sola Fide: I want to at least argue for God as creator
(4:32:09 PM) Sola Fide: in order for the universe to be intelligible for us
(4:32:13 PM) Sola Fide: God must exist
(4:33:15 PM) Sola Fide: I agree that everyone has experience
(4:33:18 PM) david: It’s just so fucking stupid
(4:33:24 PM) david: AD HOM
(4:33:25 PM) david: lol
(4:33:36 PM) Sola Fide: the issue is from which vantage pt should we approach it
(4:33:42 PM) Sola Fide: ad hom?
(4:33:47 PM) Sola Fide: where?
(4:33:57 PM) david: (4:33:18 PM) david: It’s just so fucking stupid
(4:34:33 PM) Sola Fide: stupid is necessarily ad hum
(4:34:45 PM) Sola Fide: if you can provide a reason for using that word
(4:34:51 PM) david: Listen
(4:34:54 PM) david: My point is.
(4:34:56 PM) Sola Fide: err isn’t
(4:35:12 PM) david: The universe is PHYSICALLY intelligible now.
(4:35:15 PM) david: If it changes
(4:35:23 PM) david: We either need to change as well to understand it
(4:35:31 PM) david: Or we continue understanding physically
(4:35:36 PM) Sola Fide: then nothing is predictable
(4:35:46 PM) Sola Fide: chaos reigns
(4:35:51 PM) david: If it is phsyical, and metaphysical, then we only understand the physical
(4:36:06 PM) david: The problem is, you are looking at Humans now.
(4:36:08 PM) david: We are learning
(4:36:09 PM) david: constantly
(4:36:19 PM) david: We will find out why things seem to happen randomly
(4:36:28 PM) david: We will find a theory of everything
(4:36:36 PM) david: Would this defeat your religion then?
(4:36:38 PM) david: If this happened?
(4:40:56 PM) Sola Fide: a chaotic universe is unintelligible
(4:41:08 PM) Sola Fide: why bother studying such a universe?
(4:41:57 PM) david: That is why religion is bad.
(4:42:00 PM) david: (4:41:08 PM) Sola Fide: why bother studying such a universe?
(4:42:05 PM) david: That could be a tshirt
(4:42:11 PM) david: That is why I hate christians
(4:43:08 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that you know God exists as creator
(4:43:15 PM) Sola Fide: you simply deny Him
(4:43:39 PM) david: No
(4:43:44 PM) david: I have tried
(4:43:47 PM) david: Bleedingly
(4:43:49 PM) david: Dyingly
(4:43:55 PM) david: Running and grasping
(4:43:59 PM) david: As hard as I could
(4:44:03 PM) david: For any glimmer or hope
(4:44:05 PM) david: At all
(4:44:07 PM) Sola Fide: you need the mercy of God in Christ
(4:44:26 PM) david: If god exists
(4:44:32 PM) david: It is not a chrisitian god
(4:44:41 PM) david: And if the christian god exists, I would defy him
(4:44:46 PM) david: And do all in my power to eliminate him
(4:44:58 PM) david: he is evil
(4:47:35 PM) Sola Fide: in atheism I don’t see how it’s possible for evil to exist
(4:47:38 PM) Sola Fide: it’s amoral
(4:47:58 PM) david: Atheism is amoral?
(4:48:54 PM) david: You think evolution would produce a totally imoral species that would do whatever
(4:48:55 PM) david: ?
(4:49:02 PM) david: Makes no sense how that would survive
(4:49:49 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know what is moral?
(4:55:26 PM) david: Don’t care
(4:55:42 PM) david: I don’t care if it’s not in the 10 commandments
(4:56:02 PM) david: These things can all be logically deduced
(4:56:10 PM) Sola Fide: how?
(4:56:19 PM) david: Just because at this time, we don’t know the reason why things are moral or immoral
(4:56:25 PM) david: Doesn’t mean that we will never know the reasons
(4:56:40 PM) Sola Fide: well if you currently don’t have a reason
(4:56:48 PM) Sola Fide: don’t call God evil
(4:56:52 PM) david: NO.
(4:56:57 PM) david: That’s not what I said.
(4:57:01 PM) david: I said if god was real.
(4:57:06 PM) david: And I knew he was
(4:57:09 PM) david: And he was a christian god.
(4:57:13 PM) david: He would be evil.
(4:57:20 PM) david: Based on his OWN morals.
(4:58:27 PM) Sola Fide: on what basis?
(4:58:38 PM) david: Murder
(4:58:39 PM) david: Hell
(4:58:44 PM) david: Indecision
(4:59:03 PM) david: I have to go
(4:59:04 PM) david: Sorry
(4:59:06 PM) david: Keep int ouch
(4:59:08 PM) david: Later!

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000014461 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000014441 (2:38:38 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(2:39:09 PM) david: Salutations
(2:42:33 PM) david: You there?
(2:42:40 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(2:42:48 PM) david: What’s new
(2:43:10 PM) Sola Fide: midterms coming soon
(2:43:17 PM) david: That sucks
(2:43:36 PM) david: I am done with school until I start working on my doctorate
(2:44:10 PM) david: So how do you know the christian god is the true god.
(2:44:27 PM) Sola Fide: like I said before
(2:44:44 PM) Sola Fide: I argue transcendentally for Him
(2:44:52 PM) Sola Fide: what degrees do you have?
(2:45:27 PM) david: Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and Mathematics
(2:45:45 PM) david: Masters in Geology Information Science
(2:45:58 PM) david: Minors in Environmental Studies and Hydrogeology
(2:47:01 PM) Sola Fide: cool
(2:47:13 PM) Sola Fide: I have a friend who has Geology degree
(2:47:24 PM) Sola Fide: we works in the middle of nowhere in canada
(2:48:08 PM) david: I work for a Ecological Assment Firm currently
(2:48:17 PM) david: I plan to get my Doctorate in Volcanology
(2:48:56 PM) Sola Fide: environmental science is certain hot these days right?
(2:49:11 PM) david: Sure it’s hot
(2:49:15 PM) david: The pay isn’t so hot though
(2:49:35 PM) david: What are you in school for?
(2:51:11 PM) Sola Fide: philosophy major
(2:51:19 PM) Sola Fide: I plan to be a prof or teacher
(2:51:29 PM) david: I see
(2:51:37 PM) david: So why believe in a christian god
(2:51:38 PM) Sola Fide: after undergrad I ‘m going for theological studies
(2:51:47 PM) Sola Fide: as opposed to other gods?
(2:51:51 PM) david: right
(2:52:09 PM) Sola Fide: assuming that God exists
(2:52:27 PM) Sola Fide: then you have to consider how he reveals himself
(2:52:40 PM) david: Okay
(2:53:09 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t believe in polytheism because I believe in a God who is sovereign over all things
(2:53:17 PM) david: Okay
(2:53:24 PM) david: I agree
(2:53:46 PM) Sola Fide: in Hinduism
(2:53:53 PM) Sola Fide: you have all kinds of Gods
(2:53:56 PM) david: SURE
(2:53:59 PM) david: What about Islam
(2:54:10 PM) Sola Fide: even atheism is accepted in hinduism
(2:54:12 PM) david: Or Judaism
(2:54:25 PM) Sola Fide: yes the big three western religions
(2:54:57 PM) Sola Fide: they hold that God has revealed himself through sacred scriptures
(2:55:06 PM) david: Okay
(2:55:12 PM) david: The proof can’t be the proof
(2:55:31 PM) Sola Fide: I think you basically have to deal with who Jesus is
(2:55:44 PM) Sola Fide: Judaism rejects Jesus as the Messiah
(2:55:51 PM) david: He is the representation of the Sun
(2:55:55 PM) david: Based on Pagan beleifs
(2:55:57 PM) Sola Fide: Islam teaches that JEsus is only a prophet
(2:56:06 PM) Sola Fide: that’s Mithraism I think
(2:56:43 PM) Sola Fide: I think it’s very faulty to attribute the New Testament to pagan religions
(2:56:50 PM) Sola Fide: as a development from them
(2:56:56 PM) david: Why?
(2:57:06 PM) david: Blood sacrafice predates pagan religions?
(2:57:14 PM) Sola Fide: because the New Testament is consistent with the Old testament
(2:57:18 PM) Sola Fide: no
(2:57:28 PM) david: The new testment is NOT consistent with the old
(2:57:29 PM) Sola Fide: sacrifices can be done for all sorts of reasons
(2:57:36 PM) david: Don’t even say that
(2:57:40 PM) Sola Fide: have you read the Old testament
(2:57:41 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(2:57:44 PM) david: Yes.
(2:57:56 PM) david: You can’t just lie
(2:58:04 PM) Sola Fide: have you read the book of Hebrews
(2:58:07 PM) david: You can’t blatantly lie.
(2:58:18 PM) Sola Fide: what do you mean?
(2:58:20 PM) david: God of the old testament vs gold of new
(2:58:22 PM) david: rules of the old
(2:58:25 PM) david: vs rules of the new
(2:58:28 PM) david: Totally different
(2:58:30 PM) Sola Fide: ???
(2:58:41 PM) Sola Fide: the OT contradicts to NT?
(2:58:43 PM) david: You have no idea what I’m talking about?
(2:58:56 PM) Sola Fide: how do they contradict?
(3:00:05 PM) Sola Fide: two ddifferent Gods?
(3:01:56 PM) david: If you are going to argue that God has the same mentality
(3:02:00 PM) david: And the rules are the same
(3:02:07 PM) david: And the way you get into heaven is the same
(3:02:15 PM) david: Then this conversation is over.
(3:02:20 PM) david: And pointless
(3:02:21 PM) Sola Fide: really?
(3:02:26 PM) david: Surely
(3:02:37 PM) Sola Fide: I think I know your preconceptions
(3:02:43 PM) david: There is an almost infinite list of contradictions between the 2
(3:02:45 PM) david: Look online
(3:02:47 PM) Sola Fide: God is mean and angry in the OT
(3:02:58 PM) Sola Fide: and the NT presents God as nice
(3:03:07 PM) david: Sure that could be said to be one.
(3:03:13 PM) david: But there are thousands and thousands
(3:03:15 PM) Sola Fide: that’s is gnosticism
(3:03:42 PM) Sola Fide: yes salvation is the same in the OT and NT
(3:03:50 PM) Sola Fide: justification by faith
(3:04:15 PM) Sola Fide: Abraham believed and was reckoned righteous
(3:04:32 PM) david: Who cares
(3:04:34 PM) david: I mean really?
(3:04:34 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:04:38 PM) david: Honestly why do you care?
(3:04:50 PM) Sola Fide: because I love truth
(3:04:55 PM) david: The bible is old and minstranlated?
(3:04:59 PM) david: How is this truth?
(3:05:03 PM) david: At all?
(3:05:07 PM) Sola Fide: yes translations can err
(3:05:08 PM) david: Explain it.
(3:05:09 PM) Sola Fide: so what?
(3:05:25 PM) Sola Fide: we have can refer to greek manuscripts
(3:05:48 PM) david: That are also translations and interpretations of the original..
(3:05:50 PM) david: Explain it.
(3:05:53 PM) david: it makes no sense.
(3:05:56 PM) Sola Fide: I never claimed that translations are infallible
(3:06:03 PM) david: Well explain why you believe it.
(3:06:21 PM) david: Explain how it is possible to believe something so degraded
(3:06:35 PM) Sola Fide: because translations are not part of the process of divine inspiration
(3:06:48 PM) david: Right they happened afterwards
(3:06:53 PM) Sola Fide: so what?
(3:07:01 PM) Sola Fide: people can convey things in another language
(3:07:08 PM) Sola Fide: correctly
(3:07:12 PM) david: Ok?
(3:07:18 PM) david: And everything is lost in translation
(3:07:25 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:07:36 PM) david: Well then you aren’t looking for the truth
(3:07:39 PM) Sola Fide: although greek has alot of nuances
(3:07:43 PM) david: Your looking for what you want to be there
(3:07:57 PM) Sola Fide: english can still convey the content
(3:08:04 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:08:11 PM) Sola Fide: this is scholarship
(3:08:12 PM) david: Explain it then
(3:08:15 PM) david: Because you aren’t at all
(3:08:21 PM) david: A text
(3:08:27 PM) david: That is nothing like its original copy
(3:08:38 PM) Sola Fide: we have copies of the original
(3:08:54 PM) david: Because it has been churned through social dogma, and chauvinistic ideals
(3:08:57 PM) Sola Fide: over 5500 greek manuscripts of the NT
(3:08:58 PM) david: Do you think it hasn’t?
(3:09:05 PM) david: We don’t have originals.
(3:09:24 PM) Sola Fide: the NT is the best attested ancient document in history
(3:09:27 PM) Sola Fide: by FAR
(3:09:54 PM) david: We do NOT have originals
(3:09:58 PM) Sola Fide: have you read anything about the science of textual criticism
(3:10:01 PM) Sola Fide: so what?
(3:10:12 PM) david: Because it has been churned through social dogma, and chauvinistic ideals
(3:10:15 PM) david: Explain that
(3:10:19 PM) david: YOU don’t think that happened?
(3:10:22 PM) david: Yes or no?
(3:10:24 PM) Sola Fide: you’re saying there is wholesale editing?
(3:10:31 PM) david: Definitely.
(3:10:50 PM) david: God can be good, People aren’t
(3:10:54 PM) david: Isn’t that the point of religion?
(3:11:00 PM) david: Who says they wrote anything right?
(3:11:13 PM) david: To believe in a text written by humans absolutely is nonsensical.
(3:11:29 PM) Sola Fide: the manuscripts demonstrate that the textual variants are mostly insignicant
(3:11:47 PM) Sola Fide: bad spelling, word order and other minor variations
(3:12:10 PM) Sola Fide: God can use humans to convey theology
(3:12:26 PM) Sola Fide: God can preserve His word
(3:12:30 PM) david: God can’t control us though
(3:12:35 PM) david: We all have the right to sin
(3:12:37 PM) david: And make up books
(3:12:40 PM) david: Or passages
(3:12:46 PM) david: Or change them as we see fit
(3:12:52 PM) Sola Fide: God is sovereing
(3:13:01 PM) Sola Fide: yes he is IN control
(3:13:10 PM) david: No free will?
(3:13:14 PM) david: We don’t have free will?
(3:13:16 PM) david: To sin
(3:13:27 PM) david: The church doesn’t have free will to sin and change the bible to it’s own end?
(3:13:44 PM) Sola Fide: God let sin come into the world
(3:13:48 PM) david: Shut up
(3:13:53 PM) Sola Fide: if he didn’t
(3:13:53 PM) david: And answer the question
(3:13:55 PM) Sola Fide: no sin
(3:13:55 PM) david: Don’t diverge
(3:13:58 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:14:06 PM) david: Seriously.
(3:14:21 PM) Sola Fide: I’m a calvinist btw
(3:14:28 PM) david: Beleiving a text written by HUMANS as absolute, is bullshit.
(3:14:37 PM) david: It should be considering heresy by the religious.
(3:14:41 PM) Sola Fide: humans are only instruments of God
(3:15:06 PM) david: What’s the fucking point then?
(3:15:22 PM) Sola Fide: God created us for His glory
(3:15:36 PM) david: You like that idea?
(3:15:39 PM) david: That’s stupid
(3:15:43 PM) david: I hate that idea
(3:15:46 PM) Sola Fide: I know
(3:15:52 PM) david: Do you like it?
(3:16:00 PM) Sola Fide: because you wish to exalt yourself instead
(3:16:01 PM) david: You like being someones facet?
(3:16:14 PM) david: No I wish to exault ALL life.
(3:16:17 PM) david: equally.
(3:16:32 PM) Sola Fide: yes man as the final arbiter
(3:16:41 PM) Sola Fide: while rebelling against God as creator
(3:16:49 PM) david: No.
(3:16:53 PM) david: What?
(3:17:32 PM) Sola Fide: that’s what atheists do
(3:17:44 PM) david: No that’s what idiots do.
(3:18:01 PM) david: You can’t rebel against something that’s not there.
(3:18:41 PM) Sola Fide: the fact that you deny God already shows that He exists
(3:18:56 PM) david: I deny Santa too.
(3:19:04 PM) david: You deny Alah.
(3:19:29 PM) Sola Fide: I’m talking about God as the starting pt
(3:19:51 PM) david: Ok, I’m talking about nothing as a starting point.
(3:19:55 PM) david: That’s fine with me
(3:20:02 PM) Sola Fide: then you have nothing
(3:20:04 PM) david: Just because you can’t handle that idea doesn’t mean your right.
(3:20:08 PM) Sola Fide: nothing substantial to say
(3:20:28 PM) david: Just because you can’t handle the concepts of nothing and infinity doesn’t mean there is god.
(3:20:29 PM) Sola Fide: I think a rational person doen’t start with “nothing”
(3:20:53 PM) Sola Fide: you can be nihilist
(3:20:57 PM) david: No
(3:20:59 PM) david: Dude
(3:21:03 PM) david: Before we knew about atoms
(3:21:07 PM) david: What made atoms up?
(3:21:09 PM) david: I mean
(3:21:10 PM) david: matter up?
(3:21:14 PM) david: Nothing?
(3:21:19 PM) david: or something?
(3:21:39 PM) david: To us, it was nothing… nothing besides matter that is…
(3:21:41 PM) david: Until we found out
(3:21:44 PM) david: And now we know
(3:21:46 PM) david: It’s atoms
(3:21:51 PM) david: Atom to quarks
(3:21:59 PM) david: to leptons
(3:22:01 PM) david: to whatever
(3:22:02 PM) david: Forever
(3:22:03 PM) Sola Fide: that’s in the empirical domain
(3:22:19 PM) david: Here we go again
(3:22:28 PM) Sola Fide: yep
(3:22:42 PM) Sola Fide: the empirical domain has everything in flux
(3:22:55 PM) david: I don’t get that argument
(3:23:01 PM) david: I mean
(3:23:04 PM) david: I understand
(3:23:06 PM) Sola Fide: everything is changing
(3:23:09 PM) david: But it is moot to me
(3:23:16 PM) Sola Fide: nothing has an identity
(3:23:16 PM) david: I can see atoms
(3:23:19 PM) david: and they follow laws
(3:23:26 PM) david: and leptons follow laws
(3:23:30 PM) david: and gravity follows laws
(3:23:35 PM) david: And if those laws suddenly changed
(3:23:39 PM) david: I wouldn’t exist anymore
(3:23:44 PM) Sola Fide: you cannot experience a “law”
(3:23:45 PM) david: So what is the point of talking about that flux?
(3:24:07 PM) david: You can’t expierence addition either, but it’s still a law and will always hold true
(3:24:21 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know they are tryue
(3:24:29 PM) Sola Fide: they aren’t even empirical
(3:24:41 PM) david: They are to this subset of the flux that we currently live in.
(3:25:03 PM) Sola Fide: but how do you know they exist?
(3:25:31 PM) david: Because I am not a nhlisit or a christian
(3:25:45 PM) david: Because I have a mind with which to observe and reason
(3:25:53 PM) david: Because I have been educated
(3:26:05 PM) Sola Fide: yes indeed
(3:26:08 PM) Sola Fide: you are intelligetn
(3:26:30 PM) Sola Fide: but I don’t think it’s wise to be an atheist
(3:26:39 PM) david: Surely it is
(3:26:48 PM) david: We want to know why
(3:26:51 PM) david: For everything
(3:27:00 PM) david: We challenege the world to the nth degree
(3:27:11 PM) david: If god existed we would want to know what made god
(3:27:15 PM) david: and what made that
(3:27:16 PM) david: Froever
(3:27:23 PM) david: There are no ends
(3:27:35 PM) david: Only why
(3:27:44 PM) david: Endless questions, to an infinitely complex world
(3:27:57 PM) Sola Fide: infinite regress is empty
(3:28:09 PM) david: To who?
(3:28:11 PM) david: To you?
(3:29:17 PM) Sola Fide: regressing to no end simply means that there is no starting point
(3:29:38 PM) Sola Fide: God is insufficient
(3:29:51 PM) david: I think saying that there has to be a starting point is presumptuous

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000020855 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000020835 (3:30:01 PM) david: Sure there could be
(3:30:04 PM) david: Maybe
(3:30:09 PM) david: But there doesn’t have to be
(3:30:14 PM) david: And it doesn’t have to be an entity
(3:30:20 PM) david: or consciousness of any sort
(3:30:35 PM) david: To say it does is so unebelveable chauvnistic
(3:32:00 PM) david: Hello?
(3:33:01 PM) Sola Fide: yes still here
(3:33:10 PM) Sola Fide: you just want to be neutral
(3:33:43 PM) Sola Fide: nothingness as a starting point isn’t neutral
(3:34:06 PM) david: Im not trying to be neutral
(3:34:10 PM) david: I am saying I don’t know
(3:34:14 PM) david: And neither do you
(3:34:55 PM) Sola Fide: agnosticism isn’t neutral
(3:35:12 PM) david: Okay
(3:35:24 PM) david: Image you live in the year 1400
(3:35:28 PM) david: Do you know about atoms?
(3:35:34 PM) david: Are you an atom agnostic?
(3:35:45 PM) david: No your not.
(3:35:48 PM) david: You don’t fucking know!
(3:35:58 PM) david: And neither do I, about the origin of the universe.
(3:36:02 PM) Sola Fide: I know about atomism
(3:36:03 PM) Sola Fide:
(3:36:12 PM) david: ok 900 bc
(3:36:15 PM) Sola Fide: from the ancient greece
(3:36:21 PM) david: Dawn of man
(3:36:26 PM) david: Do you know about dtring theory?
(3:36:32 PM) Sola Fide: heard of it
(3:36:36 PM) david: No.
(3:36:37 PM) Sola Fide: don’t know much about it
(3:36:39 PM) david: At the dawn of man
(3:36:46 PM) david: Are you a string theory agnostic?
(3:36:54 PM) Sola Fide: the point is
(3:37:04 PM) Sola Fide: science isn’t the be all end all
(3:37:17 PM) david: That’s your opinion.
(3:37:52 PM) Sola Fide: it’s the presuppositions and beliefs that need to be dealt with
(3:38:02 PM) david: Explain.
(3:38:27 PM) Sola Fide: science presents a theory of knowledge and reality
(3:38:48 PM) david: God presents nothing to me but more questions
(3:39:07 PM) Sola Fide: why science per se isn’t questionable
(3:39:09 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:39:26 PM) david: Surely it is
(3:39:37 PM) david: But it provides answers
(3:39:48 PM) david: The existance fo a god to me, provides no asnwers
(3:39:51 PM) david: But only more questions
(3:39:59 PM) david: First and foremost, what made god
(3:41:59 PM) Sola Fide: aren’t you begging the question
(3:42:14 PM) Sola Fide: why settle for infinite regress
(3:42:16 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:42:55 PM) david: You aren settling.
(3:42:58 PM) david: I mean
(3:43:04 PM) david: You are settling.
(3:43:10 PM) david: Im not.
(3:43:16 PM) david: If god is real, we will find him.
(3:43:34 PM) Sola Fide: you nknow he is real
(3:43:43 PM) Sola Fide: you simply deny Him
(3:44:08 PM) david: haha that’s so fucking stupid man
(3:44:24 PM) david: And arrogant.
(3:44:36 PM) david: I assure you, not one ounce of me thinks God is real.
(3:44:48 PM) david: Not one ounce of me believe there is any supernatural content to the world.
(3:44:59 PM) Sola Fide: if you are going to be an atheist
(3:45:11 PM) Sola Fide: then provide a standard for reasoning
(3:45:20 PM) Sola Fide: but since you start with nothingness
(3:45:31 PM) david: Why do you do this?
(3:45:37 PM) david: Why do you put people so low
(3:45:43 PM) Sola Fide: there aren’t any standard for reasoning
(3:45:44 PM) david: Why do you downgrade the power of mind and body we have
(3:45:46 PM) david: We are amazing
(3:45:54 PM) david: We have an amazing powerful complex mind
(3:45:58 PM) david: That can do so much
(3:45:59 PM) Sola Fide: we are amazing because God has created us
(3:46:08 PM) Sola Fide: God endowed humans with dignity
(3:46:11 PM) david: But why is that amazing?
(3:46:15 PM) david: Why is god amazing?
(3:46:27 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t even see how atheism can provide a basis for human dignity
(3:46:38 PM) Sola Fide: because God is the creator
(3:46:54 PM) david: What do you mean?
(3:46:58 PM) david: BAM, God created us.
(3:47:00 PM) david: or
(3:47:20 PM) david: Slowly, through millenia, we were carefully selected and altered, and perfected into this.
(3:47:30 PM) david: Which is more amazing?
(3:47:34 PM) david: How is that even a question?
(3:47:34 PM) Sola Fide: you live, breathe and think because of God’s providence
(3:47:41 PM) david: Why?
(3:47:45 PM) david: Explain it.
(3:47:55 PM) david: Its retarded
(3:48:08 PM) Sola Fide: form nothingness to life
(3:48:16 PM) Sola Fide: from nothingness to life
(3:48:20 PM) Sola Fide: how is that amazing
(3:48:26 PM) Sola Fide: it’s amazingly irrational
(3:48:45 PM) david: Just because your brain cannot understand it
(3:48:52 PM) david: Doesn’t mean its impossible.
(3:49:13 PM) david: From hardly anything
(3:49:17 PM) david: From a mass of chaos
(3:49:22 PM) david: Into unity and life
(3:49:25 PM) david: Amazing!
(3:49:38 PM) Sola Fide: pure chaos doesn’t bring order
(3:49:45 PM) david: Who cares what that means.
(3:49:49 PM) david: ?
(3:50:00 PM) david: Don’t just quote random theist doctrine.
(3:50:03 PM) david: Who cares?
(3:50:05 PM) david: What’s real.
(3:50:10 PM) david: Fucking open your eyes and look around.
(3:50:19 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:50:26 PM) david: Find out why God exists or doesnt
(3:50:31 PM) david: Has he whispered in your ear?
(3:50:31 PM) Sola Fide: I have
(3:50:36 PM) david: And said “Hi I’m jesus”
(3:50:44 PM) Sola Fide: and if I’m going to be rational person
(3:50:53 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not going to be an atheist
(3:51:17 PM) david: Nothing about being a rational person, dictates that a conscious MIND created the universe.
(3:51:25 PM) david: EXPLAIN HOW THAT MAKES ANY SENSE!
(3:51:26 PM) david: Lol
(3:51:28 PM) david: ?
(3:51:36 PM) Sola Fide: it doesn’t make sense to you
(3:51:42 PM) david: Explain how it makes ANY sense
(3:51:44 PM) david: At all.
(3:51:46 PM) Sola Fide: because it doesn’t fit YOUR standards
(3:51:48 PM) david: No
(3:51:54 PM) david: Explain how it fits any standard EVER
(3:52:17 PM) david: That a MIND, supercedes matter and energy and nature and physics
(3:52:19 PM) Sola Fide: explain how the nothingness provides standards and laws
(3:52:29 PM) david: I am not the one that has to explain
(3:52:33 PM) david: I am saying I don’t know
(3:52:35 PM) david: You claim to know.
(3:52:45 PM) Sola Fide: then don’t make any judgments
(3:52:51 PM) Sola Fide: be a skeptic
(3:53:04 PM) david: What!
(3:53:13 PM) david: You are the one making judments
(3:53:17 PM) Sola Fide: the problem I have with atheists
(3:53:17 PM) david: You are saying god exists
(3:53:19 PM) david: I am not.
(3:53:28 PM) david: Im not claiming anything
(3:53:29 PM) david: You are.
(3:53:32 PM) david: How do you not see that
(3:53:33 PM) Sola Fide: is that they claim certainty and then turn around and become skeptics
(3:53:50 PM) david: YOU! Christians claim certainty
(3:53:51 PM) david: We never do.
(3:54:17 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not talking about infallibility btw
(3:54:30 PM) david: Keep avoiding the topic
(3:54:36 PM) Sola Fide: I”m not avoiding it
(3:54:39 PM) david: Then explain it
(3:54:47 PM) Sola Fide: explain what?
(3:54:48 PM) david: Explain how you are the one making claims of certainty
(3:55:05 PM) Sola Fide: I am claiming certainty
(3:55:11 PM) Sola Fide: I am claiming to be correct
(3:55:18 PM) Sola Fide: yes I can be wrong
(3:55:21 PM) Sola Fide: but show me
(3:55:34 PM) david: No.
(3:55:38 PM) david: You need to show me how your right.
(3:56:04 PM) david: Proof lies in you, not me.
(3:56:08 PM) david: Im not trying to proof anything
(3:56:17 PM) david: Because I don’t know, and am saying no one can know.
(3:56:33 PM) Sola Fide: no one can know huh
(3:56:38 PM) david: Right.
(3:56:46 PM) Sola Fide: soounds absolute to me
(3:56:53 PM) david: YET
(3:56:56 PM) david: No one can know yet.
(3:57:04 PM) david: Until we find out
(3:57:06 PM) david: And then we will know
(3:57:57 PM) Sola Fide: how come we can’t know now?
(3:58:23 PM) david: The same reason we didn’t know about atoms at the dawn of man
(4:00:10 PM) Sola Fide: it still comes to the pretended neutral stance
(4:00:25 PM) david: ITS NOT NEUTRAL!
(4:00:30 PM) Sola Fide: right
(4:00:47 PM) Sola Fide: that means you’re commited
(4:01:00 PM) david: Commited to it not being neutral?
(4:01:12 PM) Sola Fide: to the nothingness
(4:01:24 PM) david: Sigh.
(4:01:28 PM) david: I think you are idiot.
(4:01:37 PM) david: Im saying that in the nicest way possible mind you
(4:01:49 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not offended
(4:02:01 PM) david: I do not know how the universe was created.
(4:02:14 PM) david: You know.
(4:02:22 PM) david: You don’t see the difference?
(4:02:23 PM) Sola Fide: well you have two choices
(4:02:26 PM) david: No
(4:02:28 PM) Sola Fide: God or nothing
(4:02:32 PM) david: No.
(4:02:38 PM) david: There aren’t two choices
(4:02:40 PM) Sola Fide: false dichotomy?
(4:02:42 PM) david: The big bang?
(4:03:01 PM) Sola Fide: what produced the Big Bang
(4:03:04 PM) david: Another big bang
(4:03:13 PM) Sola Fide: and another
(4:03:14 PM) david: Another big bang
(4:03:16 PM) Sola Fide: to no end?
(4:03:21 PM) david: I don’t know
(4:03:40 PM) david: Maybe
(4:03:50 PM) david: This universe ends
(4:03:53 PM) david: Time goes backwards
(4:03:54 PM) Sola Fide: but would you agree that nothingness does nothing?
(4:04:04 PM) david: And does everything again
(4:04:06 PM) david: exactly the same
(4:04:11 PM) david: Just one big fucking circle
(4:04:14 PM) david: No beginning
(4:04:15 PM) david: No end
(4:04:17 PM) david: No god
(4:04:21 PM) Sola Fide: time is cyclical?
(4:04:25 PM) david: Im saying, I don’t fucking know
(4:04:29 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:04:30 PM) david: Im saying I don’t know.
(4:04:47 PM) Sola Fide: but how come you know for sure that God isn’t real?
(4:04:58 PM) david: The same reason you know that santa isn’t real
(4:05:04 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:05:07 PM) Sola Fide: you’re a skeptic
(4:05:08 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:05:10 PM) david: No.
(4:05:14 PM) david: Are you a skeptic?
(4:05:18 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:05:20 PM) david: Why not
(4:05:23 PM) david: You don’t believe in sanata
(4:05:29 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:05:33 PM) david: Your a skeptic
(4:05:37 PM) david: you’re
(4:05:42 PM) Sola Fide: false comparison
(4:05:47 PM) david: Nope.
(4:05:54 PM) david: Do you believe in the big bang?
(4:06:00 PM) david: Do you believe in cyclical time?
(4:06:03 PM) Sola Fide: we’re talking about metaphysics here
(4:06:07 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:06:13 PM) david: Then you’re a skeptic
(4:06:26 PM) Sola Fide: I’m talknig about extreme skepticism
(4:06:32 PM) david: Yes
(4:06:37 PM) david: You are
(4:06:43 PM) Sola Fide: as suspension of judgment
(4:07:04 PM) david: Without the knowledge that anything like atoms exist
(4:07:07 PM) david: Why make them exist
(4:07:10 PM) david: Why call them atoms
(4:07:14 PM) david: It’s the same thing with God
(4:07:25 PM) david: Why call it god?
(4:07:28 PM) david: Why give it conciousness?
(4:07:37 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not about atoms per se
(4:07:43 PM) Sola Fide: it’s about your theory of knowledge
(4:07:52 PM) Sola Fide: you start with the scienttific method
(4:07:55 PM) david: Why give it these arbitrarly assigned qualities
(4:07:56 PM) Sola Fide: I start with God
(4:08:06 PM) david: But why?
(4:08:11 PM) david: I can explain my reasons
(4:08:16 PM) david: We live in a pjhysical world
(4:08:21 PM) david: Therefore I examine things pjhysically
(4:08:26 PM) david: EG. Scientifical
(4:08:30 PM) david: Your reason is what?
(4:08:34 PM) david: Explain it?
(4:08:38 PM) david: Why say there is a a god
(4:08:43 PM) david: And why say it has a conciousness
(4:08:44 PM) david: Why?
(4:08:45 PM) Sola Fide: how is science objective?
(4:09:01 PM) Sola Fide: if empiricism is true
(4:09:08 PM) Sola Fide: then what is real is only perception
(4:09:15 PM) david: Who cares.
(4:09:25 PM) david: Answer my questions
(4:09:26 PM) Sola Fide: but that’s precisely the issue
(4:09:27 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:09:35 PM) Sola Fide: because that’s not the issue
(4:09:39 PM) david: It is.
(4:09:56 PM) david: How can you know god exists from your perceptions
(4:09:58 PM) Sola Fide: you are applying standards that opposed to mine
(4:10:03 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t
(4:10:17 PM) david: Then from whence does he come
(4:10:25 PM) Sola Fide: God himself isn’t empirical
(4:10:33 PM) david: Then from whence does he come
(4:10:49 PM) Sola Fide: as the creator
(4:11:03 PM) david: But where does the idea or concept coem from
(4:11:05 PM) david: Why don’t I share it
(4:11:07 PM) david: And don’t say iu do
(4:11:09 PM) david: I DO NOT.
(4:11:24 PM) david: You can’t force your ideals on someone arbitratly
(4:11:34 PM) david: Just because you want to
(4:11:41 PM) Sola Fide: yes you do
(4:11:42 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:11:47 PM) david: You are an idiot.
(4:11:47 PM) Sola Fide: you deny it
(4:11:49 PM) david: Really.
(4:11:51 PM) david: You really are.
(4:11:53 PM) Sola Fide: let me explain
(4:12:02 PM) Sola Fide: people can deceive themselves
(4:12:13 PM) Sola Fide: even if something is true
(4:12:18 PM) david: So then what’s the point?
(4:12:18 PM) Sola Fide: someone can deny it
(4:12:21 PM) david: I am going to hell?
(4:12:39 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not right to deny God as creator
(4:12:45 PM) david: So yes I am going to hell?
(4:12:52 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t know
(4:13:02 PM) Sola Fide: you might be converted
(4:13:04 PM) david: So your ignorant to the laws of god?
(4:13:11 PM) david: If I died today
(4:13:12 PM) david: Right now
(4:13:22 PM) david: Claiming on my death bed, that god is fake
(4:13:27 PM) Sola Fide: the Bible says that no one has an excuse
(4:13:44 PM) david: Would I go to hell?
(4:13:59 PM) Sola Fide: if someone dies in unbelief
(4:14:00 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:14:08 PM) david: Then what’s the point?
(4:14:11 PM) Sola Fide: without accepting the gospel message
(4:14:21 PM) david: If that god exists I will kill him.
(4:14:28 PM) Sola Fide: assuming that you’ve heard the gospel
(4:14:47 PM) david: If that god exists, I openly deny him. and would attempt to destroy him
(4:14:53 PM) Sola Fide: you are already trying to kill hiim
(4:14:58 PM) david: Or cause as much harm against him as I can
(4:15:07 PM) david: Well I hope I succed
(4:15:23 PM) david: A god that allows people to go to hell is no god of mine.
(4:15:31 PM) david: And no god that should be in control of anything
(4:15:45 PM) Sola Fide: a just and holy God would can punish people
(4:15:59 PM) david: Disagree
(4:16:12 PM) david: If your religion is true
(4:16:16 PM) david: I am a satanist
(4:16:22 PM) david: And I would rather burn in hellfire
(4:16:32 PM) david: Then condone a god that suffers others to do the same
(4:17:03 PM) Sola Fide: I hope God has mercy on you
(4:17:18 PM) david: You don’t understand my view?
(4:17:52 PM) Sola Fide: I do
(4:17:59 PM) Sola Fide: you are in rebellion
(4:18:02 PM) david: Shut up.
(4:18:03 PM) david: Fuck.
(4:18:09 PM) david: Annoying
(4:18:14 PM) david: Tickle me elmo.
(4:18:21 PM) david: Canned and canned and canned
(4:18:30 PM) Sola Fide: the discussion is going very well btw
(4:18:30 PM) david: Think fr yourself
(4:18:38 PM) david: haha
(4:18:50 PM) Sola Fide: I’ll ignore the swearing
(4:19:13 PM) david: How old are you?
(4:19:36 PM) Sola Fide: 33
(4:19:41 PM) Sola Fide: by tuesday
(4:19:50 PM) david: First degree at 33?
(4:19:58 PM) Sola Fide: I worked for a number of yrs
(4:20:03 PM) david: I see
(4:20:05 PM) Sola Fide: went back to school last yr
(4:20:10 PM) Sola Fide: having fun
(4:20:11 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:20:14 PM) david: You have been a christian how long
(4:20:19 PM) Sola Fide: since childhood
(4:20:58 PM) Sola Fide: started to investigate and doing research 8 yrs ago
(4:21:27 PM) david: Sometimes I sit in my room
(4:21:29 PM) david: And I cry
(4:21:33 PM) david: For people like you
(4:21:41 PM) david: And for the harm you do to this world
(4:21:54 PM) Sola Fide: If I was a consistent atheist
(4:22:12 PM) Sola Fide: there would be no reason to be concerned for harm
(4:22:26 PM) david: I would say you were a bad person then
(4:22:35 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:22:47 PM) Sola Fide: but you would have no reason to under your rubric
(4:22:57 PM) david: I don’t get that logic
(4:22:59 PM) david: I have a mind
(4:23:05 PM) david: I have emotions
(4:23:10 PM) david: All people have similar emotions
(4:23:12 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t deny that
(4:23:14 PM) david: When you get hurt you cry
(4:23:17 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:23:22 PM) david: Why wouldn’t everyone understand its bad to hurt people
(4:23:28 PM) david: Why is that so beyond normal conciousness
(4:23:31 PM) Sola Fide: people do that
(4:23:32 PM) david: That is has to be engrained by god?
(4:23:39 PM) david: Makes no sense
(4:23:41 PM) Sola Fide: it’s the RATIONALE behid it
(4:23:51 PM) david: Im saying there needs to be none
(4:23:58 PM) david: Its wrong to hurt people
(4:24:02 PM) Sola Fide: irrationalism huh
(4:24:02 PM) david: Because I don’t want to be hurt
(4:24:20 PM) david: Humans as a group don’t want to be hurt
(4:24:31 PM) david: So things that hurt them
(4:24:33 PM) david: are morally wrong
(4:24:38 PM) david: Murder
(4:24:38 PM) david: Rape
(4:24:41 PM) david: Robbery
(4:24:43 PM) david: Theft
(4:24:45 PM) david: Violence
(4:24:47 PM) david: Pollution
(4:24:50 PM) david: Destruction
(4:24:51 PM) david: Death
(4:25:02 PM) Sola Fide: Idon’t see how moral absolutes exists in atheism
(4:25:13 PM) Sola Fide: those are only conventions
(4:25:15 PM) david: No absolutes
(4:25:17 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:25:18 PM) david: Agreed
(4:25:22 PM) Sola Fide: then it’s arbitrary
(4:25:29 PM) david: Okay
(4:25:36 PM) david: If it works for everyone
(4:25:43 PM) david: If everyone agrees murder is wrong
(4:25:46 PM) david: Isn’t it?
(4:25:56 PM) Sola Fide: why should everyone agree?
(4:26:10 PM) david: Well that’s a problem
(4:26:19 PM) david: I would argue that not even all christians agree
(4:26:30 PM) Sola Fide: I said “should”
(4:26:43 PM) david: I know
(4:26:46 PM) Sola Fide: where does the “should” come from
(4:26:46 PM) david: There is no reason
(4:26:47 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:26:59 PM) david: Because we are all humans
(4:27:04 PM) david: So we should generally feel the same
(4:27:08 PM) david: and have the same emotions
(4:27:15 PM) david: Those who don’t probably have something wrong
(4:27:19 PM) david: pyshcopathic
(4:27:22 PM) david: delusional
(4:28:34 PM) Sola Fide: herd mentality
(4:28:36 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:28:58 PM) Sola Fide: why should the majority be moral correct
(4:28:59 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:29:55 PM) Sola Fide: morally correct
(4:30:59 PM) Sola Fide: what’s morally true is defined by what’s popular?
(4:35:05 PM) Sola Fide: hey
(4:35:11 PM) Sola Fide: I gotta go
(4:35:55 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to the debate “Does God exist?” between Greg Bahnsen and Gordon Stein
(4:36:03 PM) Sola Fide: it’s on youtube
(4:36:11 PM) Sola Fide: 2.5 hrs of debate
(4:38:21 PM) Sola Fide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6iEUanJbsw&feature=PlayList&p=75F2FF36C0ECC4A2&index=0&playnext=1
(4:43:08 PM) david: ill watch it
(4:44:03 PM) Sola Fide: there are many methods that Christians use to argue for the existance of God
(4:44:22 PM) david: None make sense
(4:44:40 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t take the classical approach like Aquinas
(4:45:49 PM) Sola Fide: in any case
(4:46:13 PM) Sola Fide: I’m trying to show you how Christianity is rational
(4:46:20 PM) Sola Fide: but I can’t change your mind of course
(4:46:28 PM) Sola Fide: that’s upto God
(4:46:39 PM) david: :/
(4:46:43 PM) david: Im sad for you

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000020416 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000020396 (3:30:48 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:31:04 PM) david: Why do always say hi then leave?
(3:31:27 PM) Sola Fide: well I’ve got work to do
(3:31:31 PM) david: I see
(3:50:40 PM) david: hi
(3:51:08 PM) Sola Fide: you want to chat?
(3:51:12 PM) david: Of course
(3:51:21 PM) Sola Fide: 10 min only though
(3:51:28 PM) david: That’s not very long
(3:51:36 PM) Sola Fide: I have to write an essay
(3:51:40 PM) david: On?
(3:51:59 PM) Sola Fide: for my religion course
(3:52:05 PM) david: Do you believe in the big bang
(3:53:29 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:53:37 PM) david: Why not?
(3:54:07 PM) Sola Fide: using the historical definition of it…no
(3:54:18 PM) david: Why?
(3:54:24 PM) Sola Fide: I just don’t believe that things happen spontaneously
(3:54:31 PM) david: Okay
(3:54:34 PM) david: What if got caused it
(3:54:53 PM) Sola Fide: I believe in the creation account in Genesis
(3:54:59 PM) Sola Fide: no big bang there
(3:55:05 PM) david: 4000 years ago?
(3:55:08 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:55:25 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t believe in 6000 yr old universe
(3:55:47 PM) david: But you believe in physically one mand and one woamn in a literal perfect garden?
(3:55:54 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t think Genesis presents data to support that theory
(3:56:01 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:56:13 PM) david: Why does it have to be literal?
(3:57:06 PM) Sola Fide: depends what you mean by “literal”
(3:57:21 PM) david: Why does 7 days mean literally 7 days?
(3:57:25 PM) Sola Fide: overall Genesis is narrative in genre
(3:57:28 PM) david: What makes you choose to believe that
(3:57:47 PM) Sola Fide: because of the Sabbath on the 7th day
(3:57:58 PM) david: No.
(3:58:04 PM) david: That’s not what im asking
(3:58:17 PM) david: I’m asking why you choose to absolutely believe part of the old testment but not all?
(3:58:29 PM) Sola Fide: I bleieve all of it
(3:58:30 PM) david: Why don’t you follow all the laws of levitcus or deut
(3:58:51 PM) Sola Fide: because some of the laws are not supra cultural
(3:59:01 PM) Sola Fide: like the ones for temple sacrifice
(3:59:05 PM) david: Sure
(3:59:07 PM) david: Okay
(3:59:24 PM) david: Why do you take genesis 100% literally?
(3:59:34 PM) david: One can’t one man mean a nation
(3:59:38 PM) david: Or homosapien
(3:59:48 PM) david: Creative allusion
(4:00:37 PM) Sola Fide: ???
(4:00:54 PM) Sola Fide: you mean Adam represented man as a species?
(4:02:01 PM) david: Maybe
(4:02:27 PM) Sola Fide: that’s the idea in Genesis
(4:02:46 PM) david: I personally believe it is a reference to earlier pagan stories (which are identical) of original sin
(4:03:58 PM) Sola Fide: I”m aware of that
(4:04:28 PM) Sola Fide: like the babylonian creation account “Enuma Elish”
(4:04:39 PM) david: No idea.
(4:05:05 PM) Sola Fide: even though that’s true
(4:05:19 PM) Sola Fide: you need to trace the original creation account
(4:05:50 PM) david: Im just saying
(4:05:53 PM) Sola Fide: I know of two babylonian gods… Marduk and Tiamat
(4:05:57 PM) david: Why believe the bible literally
(4:06:19 PM) Sola Fide: because God is sovereign over all things
(4:07:00 PM) david: I totally understand
(4:07:11 PM) david: But why does it have to be LITERALLY written
(4:07:17 PM) david: That’s an opinion that it is
(4:07:20 PM) david: It never says it is.
(4:07:40 PM) david: Im not arguing in favor of it being lies and untrue
(4:07:58 PM) david: I am arguing in favor of it being written poetically and creatively
(4:10:54 PM) david: ?
(4:16:19 PM) Sola Fide: read through Genesis
(4:16:25 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not poetry
(4:16:35 PM) david: Okay
(4:16:38 PM) david: Well if you want to say that
(4:16:41 PM) Sola Fide: Psalms is
(4:16:48 PM) david: Then the orignal story is passed down from pagan believes
(4:16:52 PM) david: And isn’t true at all
(4:16:57 PM) david: I am trying to work with you here
(4:17:09 PM) david: If you can’t answer any questions at all…
(4:17:58 PM) david: Your saying it’s perfectly literal word of a christian god.
(4:18:00 PM) david: Not true.
(4:18:08 PM) david: it is an african story
(4:18:12 PM) david: Adopted by the sumerians
(4:18:15 PM) david: into baylon
(4:18:20 PM) david: later adopted my greeks and romans
(4:18:32 PM) david: The lienage of the fall of man is very traceable
(4:19:40 PM) Sola Fide: you have to demonstrate that
(4:20:03 PM) Sola Fide: pagan gods aren’t the same as the Biblical one
(4:20:05 PM) david: Why am I the one that has to reprove things already proven
(4:20:12 PM) david: But you have to prove nothing?
(4:20:32 PM) Sola Fide: what you’re saying has been dealt with already
(4:20:56 PM) Sola Fide: even though your theory is correct
(4:20:59 PM) david: Yes, and most christian apologetics believe the fall of man is mythical
(4:21:19 PM) Sola Fide: the original creation account will be discarded
(4:21:28 PM) Sola Fide: ??
(4:21:44 PM) Sola Fide: you can read liberal stuff
(4:21:54 PM) david: excuse me?
(4:21:59 PM) Sola Fide: they will give you that
(4:22:18 PM) david: Ask a modern christian apologetic…
(4:22:28 PM) david: He would agree that the fall of man is mythical
(4:22:29 PM) Sola Fide: like who?
(4:22:33 PM) Sola Fide: give me names
(4:22:51 PM) Sola Fide: it’s apologists btw
(4:23:01 PM) david: surely.
(4:23:15 PM) Sola Fide: or biblical scholars
(4:23:22 PM) david: I don’t really care to look up names
(4:23:41 PM) david: You disagree that any any would?
(4:24:11 PM) Sola Fide: Biblical scholars have produced many theories
(4:24:21 PM) Sola Fide: ranging from liberal to orthodox
(4:25:06 PM) david: How to argue against history?
(4:25:34 PM) david: How do you say, sure I see the ancient carving of adam and eve and the tree of death and the serpent
(4:25:39 PM) david: and I have translated the story
(4:25:49 PM) david: And it is from african descent
(4:26:04 PM) david: And it is obivously ripped off by the hebrews
(4:26:13 PM) david: But I choose to ignore this.
(4:26:39 PM) david: And believe that the story of Adam and Eve is unique, and about my Christian God. and follows thatr dogma precisely.
(4:28:38 PM) Sola Fide: then why not follow the african story?
(4:28:50 PM) david: That’s my point.
(4:28:53 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:29:05 PM) Sola Fide: follow your argument to its logical conclusion
(4:29:22 PM) david: Tell me.
(4:29:25 PM) Sola Fide: you would have to follow the african story
(4:29:30 PM) david: ok?
(4:29:47 PM) Sola Fide: find the original story
(4:29:59 PM) Sola Fide: now it’s necessarily true?
(4:30:05 PM) david: No im not saying its true
(4:30:13 PM) Sola Fide: how would you know then?
(4:30:47 PM) david: Im arguing that because it is a bout a different god, and a different situation and predates christiniaty, how can it be a story about a christian god?
(4:31:04 PM) david: You would argue that all religions besides christian aren’t real.
(4:31:10 PM) david: Even that old african religion.
(4:31:30 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:31:34 PM) david: Im saying if that is true, and the story was adopted from that, why is the mythical story of the fall of man true to you?
(4:31:43 PM) Sola Fide: why wouldn’t the original story be real?
(4:31:50 PM) david: It’s real not true
(4:32:00 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:32:04 PM) Sola Fide: why not true?
(4:32:07 PM) david: It could be
(4:32:14 PM) Sola Fide: because it has supernatural elements?
(4:32:15 PM) david: But that’s not a christian god
(4:32:25 PM) david: The story is polytheistic
(4:32:53 PM) Sola Fide: right
(4:33:08 PM) david: Okay
(4:33:11 PM) david: So we agree?
(4:33:29 PM) david: If the fall of man story, can be succesfully traced back to a polytheist religion, it becomes mythical?
(4:33:45 PM) Sola Fide: I’m arguing that even though the Bible was plagiarised from another story
(4:33:46 PM) david: and is therefore a falacy to use as the creation story for christianity?
(4:33:56 PM) Sola Fide: that leads us to nowhere
(4:34:05 PM) david: ????
(4:34:10 PM) david: Your choosing to ignore facts.
(4:34:14 PM) david: I don’t understand why
(4:34:35 PM) Sola Fide: we don’t have the same view of history
(4:34:53 PM) Sola Fide: the standards you use are different than mine
(4:34:56 PM) david: That’s such a cop out,
(4:35:11 PM) Sola Fide: what would be considered historical?
(4:35:20 PM) Sola Fide: if not the bible
(4:35:29 PM) Sola Fide: and not the african story
(4:35:31 PM) david: Everyhting in the past is historical
(4:35:36 PM) david: But maybe not HISTORICALLY TRUE
(4:35:38 PM) david: I mean
(4:35:41 PM) david: Yes
(4:35:42 PM) david: Like
(4:35:44 PM) david: Factual.
(4:35:48 PM) Sola Fide: I’m talking about the accounts
(4:35:57 PM) david: The bible exists
(4:36:01 PM) Sola Fide: the content of the accounts
(4:36:04 PM) david: The african stories exists
(4:36:09 PM) david: I don’t care if either one is true
(4:36:10 PM) Sola Fide: from whatever creation story
(4:36:12 PM) david: They both EXIST
(4:36:20 PM) Sola Fide: oh
(4:36:29 PM) Sola Fide: so you discard them right off the bat?
(4:36:38 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t matter which one
(4:36:41 PM) david: Perosnally? yes.
(4:36:44 PM) Sola Fide: why?
(4:36:50 PM) Sola Fide: by what standard?
(4:36:51 PM) david: because I don’t believe in supernatural.
(4:36:57 PM) Sola Fide: there you go
(4:37:03 PM) Sola Fide: prooves my point
(4:37:07 PM) david: What point is that?
(4:37:26 PM) Sola Fide: if you discard the supernatural
(4:37:39 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t matter if the Bible is product of plagiarism
(4:37:40 PM) david: Listen.
(4:37:48 PM) david: You discard every supernatural but one.
(4:37:50 PM) david: Do you get that?
(4:37:54 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:37:59 PM) david: Same as me.
(4:38:03 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:38:05 PM) david: Yes.
(4:38:11 PM) david: Your just mislead and confused
(4:38:11 PM) Sola Fide: some “miracles” are fake
(4:38:35 PM) david: It’s easy to want to live forever
(4:38:49 PM) david: God makes everything easy
(4:38:54 PM) david: Explains it all
(4:38:57 PM) david: No rationale.
(4:39:01 PM) david: No questions
(4:39:12 PM) david: But anyways
(4:39:13 PM) david: (4:37:26 PM) Sola Fide: if you discard the supernatural
(4:37:39 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t matter if the Bible is product of plagiarism
(4:39:21 PM) david: Those statements make no sense to me.
(4:39:23 PM) david: Expalin.
(4:40:03 PM) Sola Fide: if you discard the supernatural THEN it doesn’t matter if the Bible is product of plagiarism
(4:40:14 PM) david: Agreed
(4:40:16 PM) david: nothing matters
(4:40:17 PM) david: sure.
(4:40:20 PM) david: I am refering to you.
(4:40:47 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t believe in polytheism
(4:40:57 PM) Sola Fide: that’s why I reject pagan accounts
(4:41:01 PM) david: But that is where the creation myth arises
(4:41:22 PM) david: I see…
(4:41:29 PM) david: So you believe the “Devil put proof there”
(4:41:30 PM) Sola Fide: the God of the Bible is set apart
(4:41:42 PM) david: I understand you more now
(4:41:53 PM) david: Because it’s supernatural… ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!
(4:41:55 PM) david: lol
(4:41:56 PM) Sola Fide: the Israelites were a nation that had a particular culture
(4:41:57 PM) david: I get it.
(4:42:02 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(4:42:04 PM) david: Yes.
(4:42:08 PM) david: That’s sadly what you believe.
(4:42:30 PM) Sola Fide: you must deal with the God of the Bible
(4:42:32 PM) david: The creation story is from africa. Plagarised. How can you believe a polytheist belief?
(4:42:39 PM) david: Explain that.
(4:42:52 PM) david: Because god allows us to ignore it?
(4:42:58 PM) david: Because god made it similar on purpose?
(4:43:08 PM) david: Because it doesn’t matter, god is the only god because god said so?
(4:43:27 PM) Sola Fide: I believe the pagan ones perhaps borrowed from the Genesis account
(4:43:53 PM) david: Oh because it actually happened
(4:43:56 PM) david: They witnessed it
(4:43:58 PM) Sola Fide: the Bible is essentially about God and what He has done though history
(4:44:01 PM) david: And fucked up the story.
(4:44:12 PM) david: The genisis story is the real story
(4:44:14 PM) david: I get it.
(4:44:33 PM) david: Well then why does it progress from the poltheist dragon snake 2 tree story, slowly to the fall of man story
(4:44:38 PM) david: And not vice versa
(4:45:12 PM) Sola Fide: you have polytheism in Genesis 1-3?
(4:45:26 PM) david: Why is the polytheist account FIRST
(4:45:32 PM) david: And then diverge out slowly
(4:45:36 PM) Sola Fide: you have to demonstrate that’ it is first
(4:45:38 PM) david: Through different cultures
(4:45:39 PM) david: sumarian
(4:45:41 PM) david: babloyian
(4:45:42 PM) david: greek
(4:45:43 PM) david: roamn
(4:45:45 PM) david: Finally
(4:45:46 PM) Sola Fide: give me documentation
(4:45:51 PM) david: into the real account: Genisis
(4:46:05 PM) david: That’s not my job.
(4:46:07 PM) david: I know the truth
(4:46:28 PM) david: Imagine I am a history computer that knows everything
(4:46:33 PM) david: I am telling you this as valid
(4:46:36 PM) david: Im not making it up
(4:46:58 PM) david: Here is actually one example I found from google just now:http://www.africawithin.com/jgjackson/jgjackson_pagan_origins_of_the_christ_myth1.htm
(4:47:31 PM) Sola Fide: Genesis was written around 1500 BC
(4:48:09 PM) david: Human life is said to exists 20000 years ago
(4:48:53 PM) david: Im sorry I missed a zero
(4:48:58 PM) david: 200,000
(4:49:11 PM) david: Well you are wrong.
(4:49:13 PM) david: And Im sorry
(4:49:16 PM) david: But I have to go.
(4:49:16 PM) Sola Fide: according to the OT
(4:49:17 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:49:24 PM) Sola Fide: I don’tbelieve that
(4:49:30 PM) david: I know.
(4:49:34 PM) david: You don’t believe in science
(4:49:36 PM) david: or history
(4:49:41 PM) david: Because the supernatural can do anything
(4:49:47 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:49:50 PM) david: It is extremely sad.
(4:49:55 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not random and chaos
(4:50:02 PM) Sola Fide: God is sovereign
(4:50:05 PM) david: Okay
(4:50:10 PM) david: But why a christian god.
(4:50:18 PM) david: Think about it, and get back to me
(4:50:25 PM) Sola Fide: why polytheism
(4:50:26 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:50:43 PM) david: Why any?
(4:50:53 PM) Sola Fide: because for you
(4:50:57 PM) david: But that’s diovergent
(4:51:00 PM) Sola Fide: science is the be all and end all
(4:51:03 PM) david: Why christian god.
(4:51:09 PM) Sola Fide: I will not use your standards
(4:51:11 PM) david: Why a christian god?
(4:51:14 PM) david: Whjy?
(4:51:29 PM) Sola Fide: because it’s irrational
(4:51:39 PM) david: ??????????
(4:51:43 PM) david: Why not a muslim god?
(4:51:46 PM) david: Or a jewish god?
(4:51:49 PM) david: Why a christina god?
(4:51:50 PM) david: Why?
(4:52:03 PM) Sola Fide: because I believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah
(4:52:07 PM) david: Why?
(4:52:38 PM) Sola Fide: the NT is consistent with the OT
(4:52:52 PM) david: CIRCULAR LOGIC
(4:53:04 PM) Sola Fide: yours is also circular
(4:53:08 PM) Sola Fide: don’t question science
(4:53:10 PM) david: God becaucse bible because god because bible because jesus because holy spirit because bible
(4:53:23 PM) Sola Fide: science is your final authority
(4:53:32 PM) david: Ok?
(4:53:40 PM) Sola Fide: my final authority is the God of the Bible
(4:53:47 PM) david: Yes but why
(4:53:53 PM) david: I can explain why science is.
(4:53:58 PM) david: Im asking you why
(4:54:07 PM) Sola Fide: because God provides laws of nature, logic and morality
(4:54:11 PM) david: Yes
(4:54:17 PM) david: But WHY a christian god
(4:54:32 PM) Sola Fide: in a nut shell
(4:54:41 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that Jesus is the Son of God
(4:54:47 PM) david: Yes, but why.
(4:54:53 PM) Sola Fide: not just a prophet like Mohammed taught
(4:55:00 PM) david: Why do you believe that
(4:55:20 PM) Sola Fide: who would you believe? the Apostles or Mohammed
(4:55:41 PM) david: Why not?
(4:55:44 PM) Sola Fide: eye witnesses of Jesus or someone who lived 600 yrs after Jesus
(4:56:28 PM) Sola Fide: Islam started around the early 7th century
(4:57:07 PM) david: I can understand the believe in GOD, though I don’t think it is nessecarry to believe in one. I find it retard and mentally inedpt, and probably will be considered in the future to be a pyschological disorder to need a personal god.
(4:57:23 PM) david: However I do not understand how you can ever CHOOSE a man-made god.
(4:57:28 PM) david: Nothing rises one religion over the other.
(4:57:30 PM) david: Nothing.
(4:57:50 PM) david: Buddhist and Hindu and egytian religious texts are much older
(4:58:15 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:58:17 PM) david: It is a fallacy larger than any other fallacy to believe in any dogmatic, social and culuturally created god.
(4:59:07 PM) Sola Fide: you’re jsut saying one religion is older than the other
(4:59:18 PM) david: Okay?
(4:59:23 PM) Sola Fide: but Genesis tells us about creation itself
(4:59:29 PM) david: Ok…
(4:59:35 PM) david: Older text tell of a different creation.
(4:59:45 PM) Sola Fide: so what?
(5:00:00 PM) Sola Fide: does older mean true?
(5:00:08 PM) Sola Fide: not necessarily
(5:00:31 PM) david: That’s my point
(5:00:33 PM) david: What means true?
(5:00:37 PM) david: You don’t know
(5:00:43 PM) david: If man was able to know
(5:00:50 PM) david: There wouldn’t be many different opposing religions.
(5:01:15 PM) Sola Fide: that’s precisely the issue
(5:01:21 PM) Sola Fide: what makes something true
(5:01:31 PM) david: And im saying you don’t really know
(5:01:34 PM) david: YOU just think you do
(5:01:58 PM) david: How can you possibly have more spirtualism than the iraqis on 9/11?
(5:02:00 PM) david: THINK ABOUT IT
(5:02:10 PM) Sola Fide: you’re imposing your standards on me
(5:02:15 PM) Sola Fide: you’re just as dogmatic
(5:02:16 PM) Sola Fide:
(5:02:27 PM) david: No
(5:02:34 PM) david: You’re wrong.,
(5:02:36 PM) Sola Fide: you certainly don’t sound skeptical now
(5:02:44 PM) Sola Fide: dead wrong?
(5:02:46 PM) david: Yes.
(5:03:23 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not saying I am better
(5:03:31 PM) Sola Fide: according to biblical standards
(5:03:34 PM) Sola Fide: no one is
(5:03:42 PM) Sola Fide: everyone is sinful
(5:03:48 PM) david: You will never answer the question huh?
(5:03:53 PM) david: Why believe in a christian god
(5:03:58 PM) david: You can’t answer it
(5:04:00 PM) Sola Fide: I simply won’t adopt your standards
(5:04:03 PM) david: Because the answer is circular logic
(5:04:05 PM) Sola Fide: I see no reason to adopt them
(5:04:09 PM) david: and as a student of philosphy
(5:04:15 PM) david: You know circular logic is invalid
(5:04:27 PM) Sola Fide: I’m well aware of the tactic u are displaying
(5:04:34 PM) Sola Fide: yes it is
(5:04:59 PM) Sola Fide: but circular fallacies go so far
(5:05:04 PM) david: Alright
(5:05:06 PM) david: Well
(5:05:09 PM) david: I wish we could continue
(5:05:12 PM) david: But I have to go
(5:05:15 PM) Sola Fide: everyone reasons circularly ultimately
(5:05:23 PM) david: Unless you want to continue over the phone?
(5:05:28 PM) Sola Fide: nah
(5:05:31 PM) david: very well
(5:05:34 PM) Sola Fide: the discussion was good
(5:05:34 PM) david: Have a good day
(5:05:37 PM) Sola Fide: another time
(5:05:41 PM) Sola Fide: you too

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000013745 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000013725 (3:46:17 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:46:22 PM) Sola Fide: another round?
(3:46:26 PM) david: haha surely.
(3:46:32 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:46:33 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:46:42 PM) david: Can you explain why a christian god?
(3:46:53 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:47:01 PM) Sola Fide: as opposed to polytheism?
(3:47:11 PM) david: No
(3:47:16 PM) david: Opposed to anything else
(3:47:19 PM) david: Poly
(3:47:20 PM) david: Mono
(3:47:21 PM) david: Ath
(3:47:23 PM) david: Ag
(3:47:44 PM) Sola Fide: well I’ve already given my reasons against atheism and agnosticism
(3:47:55 PM) david: Not ag totally
(3:47:57 PM) david: But continue
(3:48:07 PM) david: Deism also
(3:48:25 PM) Sola Fide: any polytheistic religion doesn’t have a god who is absolute and sovereign over everything
(3:48:42 PM) david: Some do
(3:48:48 PM) Sola Fide: like?
(3:48:51 PM) david: Absolute over all other gods
(3:48:55 PM) Sola Fide: like?
(3:49:02 PM) Sola Fide: Zeus?
(3:49:05 PM) david: Sure
(3:49:06 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:49:10 PM) Sola Fide: he has parents
(3:49:16 PM) Sola Fide: the Titans
(3:49:26 PM) david: Okay?
(3:49:37 PM) david: Your making assumptions that GOD of christianity is absolute
(3:49:38 PM) Sola Fide: how about the Egyptian ones?
(3:49:42 PM) Sola Fide: ye
(3:49:43 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:49:46 PM) david: But your talking prejudicely
(3:49:53 PM) Sola Fide: that’s the claim
(3:50:07 PM) david: The claim is zeus is absolute
(3:50:13 PM) david: BECAUSE he killed his parents
(3:50:23 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:50:26 PM) Sola Fide: but still
(3:50:32 PM) Sola Fide: he is the god of thunder
(3:50:44 PM) Sola Fide: and zeus isn’t infallible
(3:50:52 PM) david: Okay
(3:50:54 PM) Sola Fide: he has flaws
(3:50:56 PM) david: Sure
(3:51:15 PM) Sola Fide: the God of the Bible claims omniscience and holiness
(3:51:31 PM) david: So does the god of every other monotheist religion
(3:51:37 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:51:56 PM) Sola Fide: but there really just 3 main monotheistic religions
(3:52:21 PM) david: I might agree
(3:52:57 PM) Sola Fide: when it comes to Judaism, Christianity and ISlam
(3:53:06 PM) Sola Fide: the issue is about who Jesus is
(3:54:07 PM) Sola Fide: this is where you will do some research with what the OT and the NT says
(3:54:29 PM) david: I get what your saying
(3:54:33 PM) david: ONE ABSOLUTE GOD
(3:54:36 PM) david: Is the only way
(3:54:41 PM) david: Right?
(3:54:46 PM) Sola Fide: yes it’s an exclusive claim
(3:55:18 PM) david: And it has to be this way because if not everything is in flux and we can’t know anything and everything is pointless and not real.
(3:55:27 PM) Sola Fide: right
(3:56:05 PM) david: I feel like your opinions and belief set are very “safe” and “secure” ones to have.
(3:56:16 PM) david: And I understand what you are saying
(3:56:28 PM) david: And you are probably one of the only theistic people I have ever understood.
(3:57:18 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t argue on the basis of pragmatism
(3:57:44 PM) Sola Fide: Christianity is not a psychological crutch
(3:57:58 PM) Sola Fide: like so many philosophers have advocated
(3:58:07 PM) david: I believe it is.
(3:58:09 PM) david: You don’t.
(3:58:14 PM) david: Wait
(3:58:17 PM) david: Can we diverge?
(3:58:27 PM) david: I understand why an absolute god make sense.
(3:58:54 PM) david: But why do you have to reduce it to having a conciousness, and fit into the christian fables?
(3:59:28 PM) Sola Fide: not sure what you mean
(3:59:58 PM) david: The logical conclusion of what your saying is that inorder for this world top exist.
(4:00:07 PM) david: There must be an absolute creator.
(4:00:15 PM) david: I don’t know why it has to be a christian figure.
(4:00:21 PM) david: or any MIND
(4:00:24 PM) david: Why is it a MIND?
(4:01:49 PM) Sola Fide: you have to consider how God has revealed Himself
(4:02:24 PM) Sola Fide: I believe he reveals himself in a consistent fashion
(4:03:06 PM) Sola Fide: we don’t really know what mind is
(4:03:28 PM) Sola Fide: that’s something that philosophers have struggled to explain
(4:06:06 PM) Sola Fide: science can’t account for things like mind, will, personal identity, etc
(4:06:53 PM) Sola Fide: there are many things we believe that are not based on science
(4:11:14 PM) david: How does he reveal himself consistently?
(4:11:20 PM) david: He used to all the time to everyone…
(4:11:29 PM) david: Then only through profets
(4:11:32 PM) david: now not at all
(4:11:34 PM) david: I don’t get that?
(4:13:38 PM) Sola Fide: I meant that God doesn’t contradict himself
(4:14:42 PM) david: You using ciruclar logic when you say that
(4:15:07 PM) david: Why believe in a christian god?
(4:15:23 PM) david: I don’t feel like you have adequately explained any reason why.
(4:15:47 PM) david: I feel you have argued very well in favor of an ultimate absolute mover.
(4:19:37 PM) Sola Fide: you would have to read the Bible for yourself
(4:21:27 PM) david: ?
(4:21:35 PM) david: The bible is not proof for the bible
(4:21:45 PM) david: Human written text is not proof for supernatural
(4:23:19 PM) david: Hello?
(4:23:24 PM) david: Help me understand
(4:24:18 PM) Sola Fide: can’t God use human beings to reveal Himself
(4:24:19 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:24:29 PM) david: Can’t zeus?
(4:24:42 PM) david: Can’t God NOT use humans?
(4:24:44 PM) Sola Fide: didn’t we already rule out polytheism?
(4:24:51 PM) david: Can’t God NOT use humans?
(4:25:28 PM) Sola Fide: God reveals himself through the natural world as the creator
(4:25:37 PM) david: Your stating that as a fact
(4:25:40 PM) david: Why is it a fact?
(4:25:43 PM) Sola Fide: but he can use human language also
(4:25:49 PM) david: How do you know this?
(4:25:53 PM) Sola Fide: depends what you consider fact
(4:25:57 PM) david: What allows you to randomly state facts?
(4:26:02 PM) Sola Fide: like I said
(4:26:09 PM) david: Circular logic.
(4:26:09 PM) Sola Fide: my starting point is God
(4:26:13 PM) david: Circular logic.
(4:26:22 PM) Sola Fide: yours is just as circular
(4:26:27 PM) david: It’s not
(4:26:31 PM) david: explain what is circular about mine.
(4:26:33 PM) Sola Fide: you have a different standard
(4:26:55 PM) Sola Fide: what makes something “factual”?
(4:27:15 PM) david: Listen
(4:27:36 PM) david: Your saying you know god is supreme, because god is supreme.
(4:27:55 PM) Sola Fide: yes because He’s the final authority
(4:28:00 PM) david: Why
(4:28:05 PM) Sola Fide: there is no why
(4:28:13 PM) david: Why is there no why?
(4:28:18 PM) Sola Fide: if He isn’t then nothing is intelligible
(4:28:26 PM) david: Sure
(4:28:34 PM) david: What if there is an ultimate creator
(4:28:42 PM) david: Has no concious mind at all
(4:28:44 PM) david: We will call it nature
(4:28:57 PM) david: At some point is decided to create everything randomly.
(4:29:01 PM) david: Because it can.
(4:29:12 PM) Sola Fide: God provides laws of nature, morality and logic
(4:29:19 PM) david: And because it has no concious, it doesn’t care about anything like morality or logic
(4:29:22 PM) david: It just happened
(4:29:26 PM) david: because it could.
(4:29:35 PM) david: explain what is flawed in that concept
(4:29:45 PM) Sola Fide: then you believe the God of chance
(4:29:56 PM) david: Okay
(4:30:01 PM) david: And what is the problem with it
(4:30:08 PM) david: Why do you disregard it?
(4:30:14 PM) Sola Fide: non rational
(4:30:17 PM) david: How so?
(4:30:23 PM) Sola Fide: it’s arbitrary
(4:30:26 PM) david: No
(4:30:30 PM) david: Its finite and absolute.
(4:30:31 PM) Sola Fide: no basis for laws
(4:30:44 PM) david: The basis is they exist
(4:30:51 PM) david: Nature made them just like this
(4:30:55 PM) Sola Fide: it’s the nothingness
(4:30:58 PM) david: NO
(4:31:01 PM) david: Its nature.
(4:31:16 PM) Sola Fide: how do you define “nature”?
(4:31:24 PM) david: The absolute finite creator.
(4:32:14 PM) Sola Fide: sounds like an oxymoron
(4:32:21 PM) david: How so?
(4:32:28 PM) david: God is infinite?
(4:32:30 PM) Sola Fide: how is he finite?
(4:32:47 PM) david: Don’t call nature a he.
(4:32:51 PM) david: It’s offensive.
(4:32:55 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:32:58 PM) david: And sexist.
(4:33:02 PM) Sola Fide: the impersonal force
(4:33:16 PM) Sola Fide: like in Daoism
(4:33:28 PM) david: Im guessing it is finite
(4:33:31 PM) david: It could be infinite
(4:33:38 PM) david: But assume there is a thing called Nature.
(4:33:42 PM) david: And it made the universe
(4:33:45 PM) david: because it could.
(4:33:58 PM) david: It randomly picked on or off for all characteritics of the universe.
(4:34:01 PM) david: And made it randomly.
(4:34:05 PM) david: It has always existed
(4:34:10 PM) david: And will always exist.
(4:34:21 PM) Sola Fide: from randomness to order?
(4:34:24 PM) david: No
(4:34:33 PM) david: From Nature
(4:34:46 PM) david: Call it anything
(4:34:54 PM) david: Fringe
(4:34:56 PM) david: Fringe
(4:34:59 PM) david: before the universe
(4:35:02 PM) david: There was fringe.
(4:35:07 PM) david: Fringe was not a mind
(4:35:08 PM) Sola Fide: so you take it for granted there is order in the universe?
(4:35:09 PM) david: Or a conciousness
(4:35:15 PM) david: No
(4:35:21 PM) david: if there wasn’t order we wouldn’t be here
(4:35:31 PM) david: So it has to be here in order for us to exist
(4:35:52 PM) david: Can you asnwer me?
(4:35:59 PM) david: Fringe made the universe.
(4:36:06 PM) Sola Fide: I”m trying to understand all your assumptions
(4:36:13 PM) Sola Fide: what is “fringe”
(4:36:14 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:36:20 PM) david: The creator.
(4:36:35 PM) david: It’s what existed before the universe.
(4:36:40 PM) david: It’s what created the universe.
(4:36:56 PM) david: It has absolute control over everything ever.
(4:37:21 PM) david: That’s it.
(4:37:26 PM) Sola Fide: is it personal?
(4:38:37 PM) david: Of course not. There are many different concious beings in the universe it created. Why would it pick one. Also, it isn’t human, or concious, so it cannot related to a human perfectly. A human is merely a simple creation of Fringes output.
(4:39:05 PM) david: I means to the end of universe that Fringe created, could end, and could begin again.
(4:39:16 PM) david: How is this not logical?
(4:39:21 PM) david: Possible?
(4:39:26 PM) david: or Plausible?
(4:41:45 PM) Sola Fide: I really don’t understand what you mean by “fringe”
(4:41:58 PM) david: That’s because you are brainwashed.
(4:42:02 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:42:06 PM) david: I mean.
(4:42:11 PM) david: You’re close minded.
(4:42:23 PM) Sola Fide: what does it have as attributes
(4:42:44 PM) david: It only has a couple.
(4:42:46 PM) david: Absolute.
(4:43:06 PM) david: That’s it.
(4:43:11 PM) david: Nontangible.
(4:43:14 PM) david: Nonphysical.
(4:43:34 PM) Sola Fide: it’s just a being
(4:43:37 PM) david: No.
(4:43:39 PM) Sola Fide: that’s all?
(4:43:40 PM) david: It’s not a being.
(4:43:48 PM) Sola Fide: it has being
(4:43:50 PM) david: It has no conciousness
(4:44:00 PM) david: Maybe
(4:44:03 PM) david: Use a different word
(4:44:17 PM) Sola Fide: if doesn’t have being then it’s nothing
(4:44:39 PM) david: No it definitely exists
(4:44:47 PM) david: It doesn’t have material being
(4:45:18 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:45:36 PM) Sola Fide: and it has the power to create
(4:45:41 PM) Sola Fide: right?
(4:45:48 PM) david: In the sense of this universe yes
(4:45:54 PM) Sola Fide: spontaneously?
(4:46:01 PM) david: However it wants
(4:46:05 PM) david: Well
(4:46:07 PM) david: it doesn’t want
(4:46:11 PM) david: So yes sponatently
(4:47:26 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t see how’s that possible without will
(4:47:52 PM) david: But you see how a god would WANT to make humans?
(4:48:10 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:48:13 PM) david: I don’t get it?
(4:48:29 PM) david: Why humans?
(4:48:29 PM) Sola Fide: God creates with a purpose
(4:48:34 PM) david: BUT WHY HUMANS
(4:48:49 PM) Sola Fide: to glorify Himself
(4:49:07 PM) david: Can it be Fringes purpose to create?
(4:49:08 PM) Sola Fide: that’s what it says according to Romans 11:36
(4:49:12 PM) david: What’s wrong with that?
(4:49:19 PM) david: Please don’t use circular logic.
(4:49:32 PM) Sola Fide: the “fringe” sounds something without a will
(4:49:48 PM) david: But it’s purpose is to create.
(4:49:53 PM) david: Its like a machine.
(4:50:00 PM) Sola Fide: no intelligence too
(4:50:06 PM) david: No intelligence
(4:50:17 PM) david: It creates random universes
(4:50:24 PM) david: Endlessly
(4:50:30 PM) david: We are in one of those.
(4:50:43 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t think anything is random
(4:50:52 PM) david: Well some things are
(4:50:57 PM) david: When I drop my cell phone
(4:51:03 PM) david: Does it go right or left
(4:51:20 PM) Sola Fide: we might not see the reason why some things are the way they are
(4:51:21 PM) david: Bad example
(4:51:31 PM) Sola Fide: but that doesn’t mean there is no reason for them

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000000936 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000000916 (4:49:19 PM) david: God’s not real!
(4:49:38 PM) Sola Fide: by what standard?
(4:50:07 PM) david: The intelligent
(4:50:46 PM) Sola Fide: ???
(4:50:55 PM) Sola Fide: :S
(4:51:19 PM) david: Okay
(4:51:22 PM) david: Are you ready?
(4:51:40 PM) david: Why does the universe have to have a beginning
(4:52:18 PM) Sola Fide: the universe defines itself?
(4:52:34 PM) david: Well
(4:52:36 PM) david: Like you said
(4:52:42 PM) david: Its irrational for something to come from nothing
(4:52:48 PM) david: So what is the opposite?
(4:52:54 PM) david: Something has always esisted
(4:52:57 PM) david: I would say
(4:53:01 PM) david: The universe is all there is
(4:53:06 PM) david: We are one aspect of it…
(4:53:11 PM) david: It is infinite

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000008940 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000008920 (3:16:26 PM) Sola Fide: gutentag
(3:16:33 PM) david: hi
(3:29:30 PM) david: so sorry
(3:29:35 PM) david: about the other day
(3:29:42 PM) david: Listen…
(3:29:46 PM) david: I am saying
(3:29:51 PM) david: The universe is the universe
(3:29:54 PM) david: is the universe
(3:30:04 PM) david: Why does there have to be anything but it
(3:30:10 PM) david: When you introduce something else
(3:30:12 PM) david: Like god
(3:30:16 PM) Sola Fide: that just means that the universe defines itself
(3:30:19 PM) david: That is were creationg comes in
(3:32:18 PM) david: Well what’s wrong with the universe defining itself
(3:34:53 PM) Sola Fide: non intelligence
(3:35:23 PM) david: The problem with everything you say is that it is sochauvanistic and human driven
(3:35:30 PM) david: Intelligence is a human construct
(3:35:43 PM) david: The universe is nearly, if not completely infinite
(3:35:49 PM) david: Who knows what else is out there
(3:36:06 PM) david: To say LOGICAL there is something else that made us
(3:36:12 PM) david: and LOGICAL it has to be intelligent
(3:36:19 PM) david: Is sucha huge fallacy to me
(3:37:46 PM) Sola Fide: why should nature be uniform in behaviour?
(3:37:57 PM) Sola Fide: or identity
(3:38:04 PM) david: its not
(3:38:18 PM) Sola Fide: then it’s not rational
(3:38:23 PM) Sola Fide: plain and simple
(3:38:37 PM) david: Rational in what sense?
(3:38:40 PM) david: To a human mind?
(3:38:44 PM) david: Okay we agree
(3:38:48 PM) Sola Fide: non intelligble
(3:38:52 PM) david: To a human mind?
(3:38:55 PM) david: Okay agreed
(3:39:33 PM) Sola Fide: I believe the reason you don’t like God as creator is because that makes you a creature under him
(3:40:22 PM) david: I don’t believe in god because not one thing ever make me see a reason why a intelligent mind is nessecary for the universe to exist.
(3:40:59 PM) david: And if an intelligent mind did make us, I would say there is a bigger picture
(3:41:15 PM) david: Bigger than god that is.
(3:42:45 PM) Sola Fide: well the God has revealed himelf through creation
(3:46:15 PM) david: It makes no sense
(3:49:29 PM) david: Why is it… That the universe cannot be infitie and eternal, but god can?
(3:53:47 PM) Sola Fide: it doesn’t give any basis for the lawlike behaviour
(3:55:09 PM) david: There is no law like behavior
(3:55:14 PM) david: its always in flux
(3:55:34 PM) Sola Fide: then everything is an accident
(3:55:59 PM) Sola Fide: you’re trying to give me a reason for that
(3:56:09 PM) Sola Fide: but given that view of reality
(3:56:14 PM) Sola Fide: there is no reason
(3:56:32 PM) david: Okay
(3:56:37 PM) david: Will you asnwer a few questions?
(3:57:18 PM) david: Can God do things that are logical impossible?
(3:57:49 PM) david: logically impossible*
(3:59:07 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:59:09 PM) Sola Fide: God cannot lie
(3:59:17 PM) Sola Fide: God can’t make a square cirlce
(3:59:26 PM) david: Okay.
(3:59:50 PM) Sola Fide: God is omnipotent in the sense that He is consistent with his own character
(3:59:50 PM) david: And you agree that creating the universe out of NOTHING is logically impossible?
(3:59:59 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:00:08 PM) Sola Fide: God can create matter
(4:00:11 PM) Sola Fide: and souls
(4:00:14 PM) david: No
(4:00:29 PM) david: So the universe can logical be created out of nothing?
(4:00:53 PM) david: logically*
(4:00:58 PM) Sola Fide: before the anything existed
(4:01:03 PM) Sola Fide: there was only God
(4:01:20 PM) david: The universe can logical be created out of nothing?
(4:01:48 PM) Sola Fide: nothing existed apart from God
(4:02:37 PM) david: is it true to say that the universe was created by god from _nothing_
(4:04:23 PM) david: ?
(4:05:48 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:06:06 PM) Sola Fide: as opposed to preexisting matter
(4:06:16 PM) david: Then why couldn’t the universe come on it’s own?
(4:06:28 PM) Sola Fide: why should it?
(4:06:33 PM) david: Fine.
(4:06:43 PM) david: Is the universe infinite?
(4:06:54 PM) Sola Fide: compared to God
(4:06:55 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:07:01 PM) david: So it’s finite?
(4:07:05 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:07:21 PM) david: And why did god wait to create a finite universe?
(4:07:24 PM) david: Was there a reason?
(4:07:33 PM) Sola Fide: well
(4:07:36 PM) Sola Fide: God is atemporal
(4:07:41 PM) Sola Fide: he created time also
(4:07:52 PM) david: Agreed
(4:08:18 PM) david: But if there is no reason then why didn’t the universe auto-create
(4:08:42 PM) david: The universe has a set point of creation
(4:08:49 PM) Sola Fide: God created everything for his own glory
(4:08:51 PM) david: God exitsed outside of that point
(4:09:10 PM) david: What is the reason for the point in time (creation)
(4:09:15 PM) david: So there is a reason?
(4:09:31 PM) Sola Fide: according top the bible yes
(4:10:01 PM) david: If there is a reason, that he picked a point in time, and the universe didn’t autocreate with the existance of god…
(4:10:13 PM) david: I would say that god is following the rules of logic and reason
(4:10:24 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:10:47 PM) Sola Fide: God is the basis for the laws of logic
(4:11:24 PM) Sola Fide: like the law of non-contradiction
(4:11:24 PM) david: If there is a reason GOD did something
(4:11:28 PM) david: Then he is following that law.
(4:11:32 PM) david: Do you disagree?
(4:12:27 PM) Sola Fide: iit’s within God’s character to be rational
(4:12:51 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t put the laws of logic above God
(4:13:00 PM) david: So he auto-created
(4:13:06 PM) david: The universe had to
(4:13:08 PM) Sola Fide: they simply reflect his character
(4:13:10 PM) david: if there wasn’t a reason
(4:13:22 PM) Sola Fide: God freely decided to create
(4:13:31 PM) david: There has to be a reason
(4:13:42 PM) Sola Fide: read Romans 11:36
(4:13:47 PM) david: No.
(4:13:57 PM) david: That makes no sense.
(4:14:10 PM) Sola Fide: 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(4:14:17 PM) david: Rhetoric.
(4:14:28 PM) david: Thanks for showing me brain-washing in person
(4:14:31 PM) Sola Fide: sure that makes sense
(4:14:35 PM) Sola Fide: you just don’t like it
(4:14:42 PM) Sola Fide: cause you’re not God
(4:14:54 PM) Sola Fide: you are a creature
(4:14:54 PM) david: I don’t like it, because some guy wrote it.
(4:15:13 PM) Sola Fide: everything serves God’s purposes and intentions
(4:15:17 PM) david: Circular logic
(4:15:18 PM) Sola Fide: not ours
(4:15:20 PM) david: If bible then god
(4:15:23 PM) david: if god then bible
(4:15:46 PM) david: Don’t argue blatant logical fallacies to me.
(4:16:33 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t even know how atheism can account for the laws of logic
(4:16:38 PM) Sola Fide: like you said before
(4:16:42 PM) Sola Fide: everything is flux
(4:16:46 PM) david: Okay
(4:18:45 PM) david: I mean…
(4:18:58 PM) david: You never read about the discovery of them?
(4:19:04 PM) david: Mathematical logic?
(4:19:08 PM) david: Like who invented it?
(4:19:16 PM) david: You never took that class?
(4:23:29 PM) david: Hello?
(4:23:53 PM) Sola Fide: nevermind who invented them
(4:24:02 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t believe they are conventions
(4:24:19 PM) Sola Fide: they preexisted
(4:24:29 PM) david: That’s your bullshit opinion
(4:24:44 PM) Sola Fide: if they are conventions
(4:24:49 PM) Sola Fide: then they are arbitrary
(4:25:13 PM) david: To who, you?
(4:25:19 PM) Sola Fide: anyone
(4:25:39 PM) david: If a then b, and b then c then a then c is ARBITRARY?
(4:29:04 PM) david: Hello?
(4:29:27 PM) david: I would say that logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe, humans, or anything.
(4:29:33 PM) david: And logical reasoning is not always TRUE
(4:29:38 PM) david: or the same for everyone
(4:29:46 PM) david: especially in real world situations
(4:33:35 PM) david: Hello?
(4:34:21 PM) Sola Fide: then reason anyway you want
(4:34:57 PM) david: Doesn’t it feel nice?
(4:34:59 PM) david: And safe?
(4:35:04 PM) david: In your little closed world?
(4:35:11 PM) david: Everyone has the same logic beleifs
(4:35:14 PM) david: and moral beleifs
(4:35:22 PM) david: and everything is handed down and prearranged
(4:35:33 PM) david: Its easier this way mom! Hop on board.
(4:35:37 PM) david: We get to live forever!
(4:35:42 PM) david: And never die.
(4:35:44 PM) david: God damn it.
(4:35:49 PM) david: You’re a joke.

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000005189 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000005169 (2:40:52 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(2:41:01 PM) david: Hi
(2:43:12 PM) david: What’s up
(2:43:41 PM) Sola Fide: taking it easy
(2:44:04 PM) david: Im not sure what to talk to you about anymore
(2:44:10 PM) david: We can’t discuss things logically anymore
(2:44:22 PM) Sola Fide: that’s right
(2:44:55 PM) Sola Fide: under atheism… anything goes
(2:45:15 PM) david: Okay
(2:45:16 PM) Sola Fide: but you don’t live like that
(2:45:23 PM) david: I totally get what your saying
(2:45:25 PM) david: and it makes no sense
(2:45:29 PM) david: But you will never get it
(2:45:52 PM) Sola Fide: you have no basis to say I’m in error
(2:46:02 PM) david: Dude
(2:46:08 PM) david: The problem with what your saying
(2:46:12 PM) david: Is that I can make up anything
(2:46:17 PM) david: Literally ANYTHING
(2:46:19 PM) david: Fringe
(2:46:20 PM) david: God
(2:46:25 PM) david: Hotel California
(2:46:38 PM) david: Say it is eternal, and made the laws of logic
(2:46:44 PM) david: And then it works
(2:46:48 PM) david: its fucking retarded
(2:47:06 PM) Sola Fide: then be irrational
(2:47:41 PM) david: So the laws of math?
(2:47:42 PM) david: From god?
(2:47:55 PM) Sola Fide: laws of logic
(2:47:57 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(2:47:59 PM) david: Im asking
(2:48:00 PM) david: MATH
(2:48:06 PM) david: 1+1 = 2
(2:48:15 PM) Sola Fide: math is based on laws of logic
(2:48:46 PM) david: If a then b and b then c then a then c, is a law of logic?
(2:50:05 PM) Sola Fide: no
(2:50:09 PM) Sola Fide: the basic ones
(2:50:10 PM) david: …
(2:50:17 PM) Sola Fide: like the law of identity
(2:50:23 PM) Sola Fide: law of non-contradiction
(2:52:10 PM) david: haha
(2:52:12 PM) david: a is a?
(2:52:20 PM) david: a then a
(2:53:47 PM) Sola Fide: no
(2:53:56 PM) Sola Fide: a then b is a conditional
(2:54:06 PM) Sola Fide: the law of identity isn’t conditional
(2:54:14 PM) david: A IS A
(2:54:18 PM) david: A THEN A
(2:54:59 PM) Sola Fide: if it rains tomorrow then the grass will be wet
(2:55:24 PM) david: What the fuck dude
(2:55:27 PM) david: Not A then B
(2:55:29 PM) david: A is A
(2:55:33 PM) david: Correct?
(2:56:40 PM) david: Hello sir?
(2:57:24 PM) Sola Fide: A = A is a tautology
(2:57:31 PM) Sola Fide: dog = dog
(2:57:56 PM) david: Dude
(2:58:00 PM) david: WHAT
(2:58:08 PM) david: What is your point?
(2:58:56 PM) Sola Fide: you asked what the laws of logic are
(2:59:01 PM) Sola Fide: I’m answering
(2:59:17 PM) david: A=A
(2:59:18 PM) david: Agreed?
(3:00:04 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:00:11 PM) david: Ok…
(3:00:27 PM) david: So you are referring to the three classical logic laws invented by Aristole?
(3:00:44 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:00:44 PM) david: Talked about no where in the bible?
(3:00:51 PM) Sola Fide: not invented
(3:01:00 PM) Sola Fide: well not formally
(3:01:24 PM) david: TO YOU
(3:01:27 PM) david: Not invented TO YOU
(3:01:50 PM) Sola Fide: the fact that God cannot lie demonstrates that that the laws of logic reflect His character
(3:01:53 PM) Sola Fide: david
(3:01:57 PM) david: Circular logic
(3:02:03 PM) Sola Fide: if everything is relative
(3:02:09 PM) Sola Fide: then you have no argument to present
(3:02:21 PM) david: haha
(3:02:24 PM) david: that’s so DUMB
(3:02:36 PM) david: Before we know about atoms
(3:02:39 PM) david: Can we talk about matter?
(3:03:05 PM) Sola Fide: I think it’s deeper than that
(3:03:10 PM) Sola Fide: does matter change?
(3:03:34 PM) david: You don’t think a human MIND, can sit down, and think about things, and realize that no matter what A = A
(3:03:42 PM) david: That’s not rational to you?
(3:04:20 PM) Sola Fide: do you have a reason to think so
(3:04:24 PM) Sola Fide: in atheism
(3:04:25 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(3:04:28 PM) david: yes. aristotle did it.
(3:04:37 PM) Sola Fide: oh
(3:04:51 PM) david: What your saying makes no SENSE
(3:04:52 PM) Sola Fide: so A =A is true only because Aristotle said so?
(3:05:05 PM) david: because different people through the years have had discenting laws of logic True?
(3:05:17 PM) david: And they have been discussed and argued about, and formalized.
(3:05:35 PM) david: For example… Plato.
(3:05:38 PM) Sola Fide: well did they pre exist?
(3:05:52 PM) david: How can they preexist if we can change them?
(3:08:23 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:08:38 PM) Sola Fide: you’re denying that they are metaphysical
(3:08:47 PM) david: Why do they have to be?
(3:08:49 PM) david: it makes no sense
(3:08:54 PM) david: people DO disagree on them
(3:08:56 PM) david: it happenes everyday
(3:09:00 PM) david: Its happening right now
(3:09:06 PM) david: There is no SET law of logic
(3:09:23 PM) Sola Fide: then we can reason in an arbitrary fashion
(3:09:59 PM) Sola Fide: hey I gotta go
(3:10:05 PM) Sola Fide: we’ll continue again
(3:10:08 PM) david: bye

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000002041 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000002021 (3:27:37 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:28:20 PM) david: Logic is arbitrary I guess
(3:28:23 PM) david: To me
(3:28:25 PM) david: But not to you
(3:28:27 PM) david: Right?
(3:28:34 PM) david: So we can still LOGICAL discus anything
(3:28:41 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:28:44 PM) Sola Fide: under your rubric
(3:28:48 PM) Sola Fide: anything goes
(3:29:05 PM) david: Yes
(3:29:09 PM) david: But you don’t believe that
(3:29:15 PM) david: So what is the point of you saying it?
(3:29:18 PM) Sola Fide: that makes argumentation impossible
(3:29:22 PM) david: For me
(3:29:35 PM) david: But to you, the logical rules are true
(3:29:40 PM) david: So why can’t I bother them
(3:29:41 PM) Sola Fide: yes but what about me and others?
(3:29:52 PM) david: Even though I am an atheist
(3:30:10 PM) david: To argue with you, assume I am using logical rules from god
(3:30:49 PM) david: To me, they are arbitraty, just like love
(3:31:26 PM) Sola Fide: then we can’t communicate
(3:31:41 PM) david: That makes no sense
(3:31:48 PM) david: You know the laws og logic are real right?
(3:31:53 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:32:13 PM) david: Now even though I think they are arbitrary, I can still follow your laws, the laws of god
(3:32:23 PM) david: Correct?
(3:32:28 PM) Sola Fide: yes in a pragmatic sense
(3:32:35 PM) david: No.
(3:32:39 PM) david: In an absolute sense
(3:33:37 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:33:41 PM) Sola Fide: by convention
(3:33:55 PM) Sola Fide: you take them as if they are absolute
(3:39:15 PM) Sola Fide: that is inconsistent with atheism
(4:22:00 PM) david: I don’t think it is
(4:23:00 PM) Message could not be sent because an error with the switchboard occurred:
(4:23:00 PM) I don’t think it is
(4:52:06 PM) 4jchan@videotron.ca is now known as Sola Fide.

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000018923 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000018903 (3:46:03 PM) david: I had this argument about god today
(3:46:05 PM) david: with this kid
(3:46:06 PM) david: http://dudesweat.sweatparty.com/2009/04/15/gods-facebook/
(3:50:38 PM) Sola Fide: well you know that I don’t use his approach
(3:50:48 PM) david: im just letting you read it
(3:51:48 PM) Sola Fide: we don’t live by faith?
(3:51:58 PM) Sola Fide: yuo have no beliefs?
(3:52:38 PM) david: Faith
(3:52:40 PM) david: I don’t think so
(3:54:40 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that your 5 senses are reliable?
(3:55:00 PM) david: I don’t
(3:55:17 PM) david: how do you know the bible is
(3:55:23 PM) Sola Fide: you simply believe they are
(3:55:43 PM) david: Its stupid
(3:55:53 PM) david: I can see my cellphone in my hand
(3:55:59 PM) david: Sight works
(3:58:16 PM) Sola Fide: no it’s not stupid
(3:58:32 PM) Sola Fide: I already mentioned before
(3:58:42 PM) Sola Fide: the world to our senses is constantly changing
(3:58:54 PM) david: in such a mundane way
(3:59:11 PM) Sola Fide: ask a Theravadan Buddhist
(3:59:20 PM) Sola Fide: he’ll say that everything is in flux
(3:59:31 PM) Sola Fide: therefore all we have is the nothingness
(3:59:52 PM) david: no we have flux
(4:01:11 PM) Sola Fide: that’s all there is right?
(4:01:55 PM) david: sure
(4:05:11 PM) david: ?
(4:05:13 PM) david: What’s the point
(4:07:50 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t deny that everyone has sensations
(4:08:00 PM) Sola Fide: the issue is how do we make sense of them
(4:08:45 PM) david: okay
(4:09:16 PM) david: everything is in flux, but we are trying to understand the flux… “The Theory of Everything”
(4:10:35 PM) Sola Fide: there is no order on a purely empirical world
(4:10:51 PM) david: that’s your opinion
(4:10:54 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:11:04 PM) Sola Fide: that’s how philosophers have argued
(4:11:17 PM) Sola Fide: “order” is not empirical
(4:11:30 PM) david: I don’t have any idea what your talking baoiut
(4:12:00 PM) Sola Fide: the world and the way it is structured
(4:12:12 PM) david: We don’t know yet
(4:12:14 PM) Sola Fide: did that come about accidentally ?
(4:12:25 PM) Sola Fide: that’s not a scientific question
(4:12:34 PM) Sola Fide: it’s philsophical
(4:12:47 PM) david: Accidentally is a bad term
(4:12:54 PM) david: In came to be by itself
(4:13:36 PM) Sola Fide: why should it?
(4:13:51 PM) david: because we wouldn’t be here to ask?
(4:13:51 PM) Sola Fide: there is no “should” in atheism
(4:14:10 PM) david: It is.
(4:14:25 PM) david: The universe exists now?
(4:14:30 PM) david: So it had to exists forever
(4:14:32 PM) david: In some state
(4:14:54 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that?
(4:15:07 PM) david: Because that is what all scientific data points to
(4:15:15 PM) Sola Fide: inductive reasoning?
(4:15:26 PM) Sola Fide: hasty generalizations
(4:15:26 PM) david: sure
(4:15:35 PM) Sola Fide: under an empiricism?
(4:16:07 PM) david: Can humans ever obtain ultimately knowledge of the entire universe, everything?
(4:16:17 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:16:24 PM) david: Then everything is a hasty generaliztion
(4:16:31 PM) david: In your opinion.
(4:16:35 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:16:39 PM) david: Even god.
(4:16:41 PM) Sola Fide: everything is based on it
(4:16:46 PM) Sola Fide: the problem is
(4:16:53 PM) david: No.
(4:16:58 PM) Sola Fide: atheism does NOT permit any sort of generalizations
(4:17:01 PM) david: The exact same argument you are stating to me
(4:17:08 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:17:10 PM) david: Is exactly the same as the argument against god
(4:17:19 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(4:17:21 PM) david: Yes.
(4:17:23 PM) david: Identical
(4:17:26 PM) david: Explain any difference
(4:17:34 PM) Sola Fide: my worldview allows for generalizations
(4:17:41 PM) Sola Fide: God is sovereign over all things
(4:17:45 PM) david: Okay?
(4:17:53 PM) david: Why does it allow for generalizations
(4:17:56 PM) david: Who said that god?
(4:17:58 PM) Sola Fide: and things behave in a lawlike manner under God
(4:17:59 PM) david: I don’t think he did.
(4:18:12 PM) david: Until you know everything you can’t know that.
(4:18:21 PM) david: We already agreed on that.
(4:18:21 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t know everything
(4:18:30 PM) david: Then you don’t know “and things behave in a lawlike manner under God”
(4:18:35 PM) Sola Fide: and I don’t need to know everything
(4:18:38 PM) david: No.
(4:18:40 PM) david: You don’t know anything
(4:18:45 PM) david: We already agreed on this
(4:19:01 PM) Sola Fide: now you’re a skeptic
(4:19:05 PM) david: No
(4:19:08 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:19:08 PM) david: You are a skeptic
(4:19:34 PM) david: Your the one that is talking about hasty generalizations
(4:19:44 PM) Sola Fide: tell me how you know that empiricims is the only way to knowledge
(4:19:52 PM) david: tell me how you know god is?
(4:19:57 PM) Sola Fide: I’m arguing that under atheism
(4:20:05 PM) Sola Fide: inductive reasoning isn’t possilbe
(4:20:12 PM) david: Why?
(4:20:15 PM) david: That’s dumb to say
(4:20:34 PM) Sola Fide: because under empiricism all there is are particulars
(4:20:41 PM) david: Explain what that means
(4:21:01 PM) david: Oh
(4:21:03 PM) Sola Fide: we can only see particular instances of things
(4:21:05 PM) david: A particular instance of this
(4:21:07 PM) david: yes ok
(4:21:13 PM) david: What’s your point
(4:21:15 PM) Sola Fide: as opposed to universals
(4:21:18 PM) david: Why can’t I generalize
(4:21:23 PM) david: Based on a large sample
(4:21:28 PM) david: That’s is relative to me
(4:21:31 PM) david: And that’s as good as it gets
(4:21:35 PM) david: Until I Have a larger sample
(4:21:53 PM) Sola Fide: you have a bunch of data
(4:22:00 PM) Sola Fide: you string the data up
(4:22:05 PM) Sola Fide: and make sense of it
(4:22:21 PM) david: Our knowledge is only as good as our knowledge can be right now…
(4:22:24 PM) Sola Fide: what gives you the basis to string the data up
(4:22:25 PM) david: Its continuely getting better
(4:22:32 PM) Sola Fide: better?
(4:22:35 PM) Sola Fide: against what?
(4:22:42 PM) david: the previous knowledge
(4:22:51 PM) david: like calculating pi
(4:23:00 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know the past is related to the present or future?
(4:23:07 PM) Sola Fide: where’s the connection
(4:23:08 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:23:12 PM) david: Entropy?
(4:23:15 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:23:16 PM) david: yes
(4:23:30 PM) david: Humans move linearly in time, relative to entropy
(4:23:31 PM) Sola Fide: where do you get the connection
(4:23:36 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not empirical
(4:23:44 PM) david: For right now it is
(4:23:59 PM) david: Until it changes, then we can explain the change and the new system
(4:24:08 PM) david: and better understand both systems
(4:24:29 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that one event is connected to an adjacent one
(4:24:30 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:24:40 PM) david: I drop a cup
(4:24:42 PM) david: it falls
(4:24:45 PM) david: then breaks?
(4:24:47 PM) david: Like that?
(4:25:19 PM) Sola Fide: that is an accident or necessary result?
(4:25:34 PM) david: huh
(4:25:44 PM) david: who cares
(4:25:51 PM) Sola Fide: fine
(4:25:52 PM) david: mutiple timelines?
(4:25:58 PM) david: mutiple dimensions?
(4:25:58 PM) Sola Fide: be a skeptic
(4:26:04 PM) Sola Fide: hehe
(4:26:12 PM) david: Listen
(4:26:15 PM) david: I am not a skeptic
(4:26:16 PM) david: You are
(4:26:24 PM) david: You say the universe couldn’t have always existed
(4:26:28 PM) Sola Fide: I know you claim you are not
(4:26:31 PM) david: I don’t say god doesn’t exist
(4:26:35 PM) Sola Fide: but you should be given your beliefs
(4:26:43 PM) Sola Fide: if I was consistent atheist
(4:26:45 PM) david: I am saying there is not reason why I would believe in something that doesn’t exert itself on me whatsoever
(4:26:49 PM) Sola Fide: I would be a skeptic
(4:27:11 PM) david: Do you think I am?
(4:27:16 PM) david: What am I skeptical about?
(4:27:34 PM) Sola Fide: I’m saying you SHOULD be
(4:27:40 PM) Sola Fide: given your beliefs
(4:27:42 PM) david: I am asking if you think I should
(4:27:45 PM) david: think I am*
(4:27:50 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:27:56 PM) david: What am I skeptical of?
(4:28:10 PM) Sola Fide: this isn’t about what you claim
(4:28:18 PM) Sola Fide: I’m asking for consistency
(4:28:19 PM) david: What am I skeptical of?
(4:28:27 PM) david: Im very consistant
(4:28:41 PM) david: Why won’t you ever anwer simple questions
(4:29:44 PM) Sola Fide: because you don’t know what the issue is
(4:29:51 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t ask the right questions
(4:29:53 PM) david: Ok what is the issue
(4:29:59 PM) david: You say im a skeptic
(4:30:04 PM) david: So what am I a skeptic about.
(4:30:14 PM) Sola Fide: empiricism doesn’t give a basis for inductive reasoning
(4:30:20 PM) david: How doesn’t it.
(4:30:41 PM) david: empircism = experiences
(4:30:50 PM) david: mutliple experiences = inductive reasoning
(4:30:53 PM) david: …
(4:30:57 PM) Sola Fide: that doesn’t follow
(4:31:04 PM) david: What don’t you get
(4:31:18 PM) Sola Fide: you have experience of the past
(4:31:27 PM) Sola Fide: that doesn’t tell you anything about the future
(4:31:42 PM) david: that’s your opinion
(4:31:43 PM) Sola Fide: have you experienced the future
(4:31:52 PM) Sola Fide: fine dismiss me
(4:31:55 PM) david: No it is
(4:31:58 PM) david: Think about it
(4:32:07 PM) david: gravity is working the same
(4:32:12 PM) david: same equations are working
(4:32:13 PM) Sola Fide: as of NOw
(4:32:16 PM) Sola Fide: not the future
(4:32:16 PM) david: Agreed.
(4:32:20 PM) david: As of now
(4:32:22 PM) david: and yesterday
(4:32:27 PM) david: into the infinite human past
(4:32:53 PM) david: and we assume into the future, since the universe seems to move humans along time linearly
(4:33:18 PM) Sola Fide: based on what
(4:33:19 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:33:35 PM) david: Observation
(4:33:41 PM) Sola Fide: of the future?
(4:33:46 PM) Sola Fide: you simply beg the question
(4:33:48 PM) david: memory.
(4:33:58 PM) Sola Fide: we only have memory of the past
(4:34:10 PM) david: since the universe _SEEMS_ to move humans along time linearly
(4:34:29 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that
(4:34:29 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:34:37 PM) david: because I have a memory
(4:34:46 PM) Sola Fide: you simply beg the question
(4:34:59 PM) david: I have a memory of yesterday
(4:35:02 PM) Sola Fide: so what?
(4:35:02 PM) david: thinking about the future
(4:35:04 PM) david: And here I am
(4:35:12 PM) david: So it APPEARS to move linearly
(4:35:17 PM) david: That is our best knowledge of it
(4:35:23 PM) david: Until be built a machine
(4:35:29 PM) david: That can take a picture of TIME
(4:35:34 PM) david: And see that is spherical
(4:35:38 PM) david: or cononical
(4:35:43 PM) david: Or a hypercube
(4:35:44 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know the future will be like the past
(4:35:45 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:35:58 PM) david: How do I know that when I go home my hosue will be there
(4:35:59 PM) david: ?
(4:36:01 PM) david: Its idiotic
(4:36:05 PM) Sola Fide: no it’s not
(4:36:13 PM) david: So my house isn’t there
(4:36:17 PM) Sola Fide: strictly speaking you don’t have a basis
(4:36:18 PM) david: Or I don’t know it is right?
(4:36:25 PM) david: Nhilism
(4:36:35 PM) david: Everything is baseless
(4:36:47 PM) david: Sure
(4:36:49 PM) david: I believe it
(4:36:54 PM) david: And I believe that everything is baselss
(4:37:01 PM) david: Currently
(4:37:04 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t deny you believe what you believe
(4:37:23 PM) david: But I believe we can figure shit out
(4:37:26 PM) david: Figure out the base
(4:37:27 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:37:41 PM) david: Or a near perfect approximation
(4:38:14 PM) david: Im sure there is some pan-temporal being out there, that understands the actual workings of the universe a lot better than me right now
(4:38:25 PM) david: By I only have my senses
(4:38:26 PM) Sola Fide: God?
(4:38:32 PM) david: And that’s what I am going on
(4:38:38 PM) david: No not god
(4:38:41 PM) david: An alien
(4:38:44 PM) david: Hyptohtetically
(4:38:50 PM) Sola Fide: why only your senses?
(4:38:54 PM) david: What else is there
(4:39:12 PM) Sola Fide: how about the laws of logic?
(4:39:14 PM) Sola Fide: hehe
(4:39:29 PM) david: ok
(4:39:36 PM) david: But esentially its based on senses
(4:39:41 PM) Sola Fide: wow
(4:39:50 PM) Sola Fide: you can put logic in a test tube?
(4:40:08 PM) david: im saying the inputs
(4:40:11 PM) david: and ouputs
(4:40:11 PM) Sola Fide: how about the scientific method
(4:40:21 PM) Sola Fide: you can put that also in a test tube?
(4:40:27 PM) david: No what the fuck are you talking about?
(4:40:32 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:40:35 PM) david: ???
(4:40:39 PM) Sola Fide: rofl
(4:41:08 PM) Sola Fide: you’re willing to reject anything that isn’t empirical right
(4:41:09 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:41:19 PM) david: Yes
(4:41:22 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:41:31 PM) Sola Fide: reject the scientific method and the laws of logic
(4:41:47 PM) david: they are empirical
(4:41:54 PM) david: based on experience they work
(4:41:57 PM) Sola Fide: put them in a test tube
(4:42:02 PM) Sola Fide: then you’ll convince me
(4:42:04 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:42:08 PM) david: That’s not what empirical means
(4:42:16 PM) david: Now you sound like a idiot.
(4:42:17 PM) Sola Fide: eye ball experience
(4:42:53 PM) Sola Fide: you can’t experience them
(4:43:08 PM) Sola Fide: a law is be definition universal
(4:43:13 PM) Sola Fide: be = by
(4:43:37 PM) david: that’s semantics
(4:43:43 PM) david: calling it a law
(4:43:47 PM) david: so it has to be universal
(4:43:54 PM) david: its a commoditity
(4:44:01 PM) david: its not universal
(4:44:05 PM) david: its the best we have now
(4:44:09 PM) Sola Fide: would you argue that the laws of logic are conventions
(4:44:10 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:44:15 PM) david: yes
(4:44:17 PM) david: basless
(4:44:21 PM) Sola Fide: I see
(4:44:36 PM) Sola Fide: so I can make up any standards of reasoning
(4:44:37 PM) david: they are the best ones we have
(4:44:45 PM) david: I guess you can
(4:44:51 PM) Sola Fide: anyone can
(4:45:07 PM) Sola Fide: it’s completely arbitrary
(4:45:14 PM) david: No
(4:45:17 PM) david: Its not arbitraty
(4:45:23 PM) david: Its tested
(4:45:24 PM) Sola Fide: conventions are arbitrary
(4:45:30 PM) david: And refined
(4:45:34 PM) david: and constantly made better
(4:45:35 PM) david: and changed
(4:45:42 PM) Sola Fide: how are you supposed to test the laws of logic
(4:45:43 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:45:53 PM) david: Are you joking?
(4:45:56 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:45:56 PM) david: See if they hold up…
(4:46:12 PM) david: Time
(4:46:20 PM) david: Math
(4:46:30 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:46:36 PM) Sola Fide: so they are not lawlike
(4:46:42 PM) david: They are lawlike
(4:46:44 PM) Sola Fide: simply conventions people came up with
(4:46:51 PM) david: They aren’t laws
(4:46:52 PM) Sola Fide: oh so you retract
(4:46:54 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:46:57 PM) david: They aren’t laws
(4:47:00 PM) david: They are lawlike though
(4:47:09 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know they are lawlike
(4:47:10 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:47:11 PM) david: It gives the illusion that they are universal
(4:47:15 PM) david: that’s why people like you exists
(4:47:31 PM) david: Because they call them laws
(4:47:38 PM) david: and then say a law is universal
(4:47:39 PM) Sola Fide: because we say so?
(4:47:42 PM) david: Its true but wrong
(4:48:01 PM) david: Yes
(4:48:05 PM) david: Christians say
(4:48:14 PM) david: Logic is an absolutel given by god
(4:48:15 PM) david: Well maybe not
(4:48:20 PM) david: But they def say it anout morals
(4:48:26 PM) david: But it isn’t
(4:48:29 PM) david: Its subjective
(4:49:11 PM) Sola Fide: what is absolute
(4:49:12 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:49:20 PM) Sola Fide: nothing is?
(4:49:21 PM) david: I don’t fucking know
(4:49:24 PM) david: Oh
(4:49:28 PM) david: The universe I guess
(4:49:32 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:50:14 PM) Sola Fide: absolutes don’t have a place for an empiricist
(4:50:43 PM) david: why?
(4:51:01 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t experience absolutes
(4:51:11 PM) Sola Fide: unless you are God
(4:52:01 PM) david: I never said I experienced an absolute
(4:52:06 PM) david: I think the universe has lasted forever
(4:52:11 PM) david: Because it makes the most sense to me
(4:52:59 PM) Sola Fide: well that’s your belief
(4:53:06 PM) david: no
(4:53:16 PM) david: Its what all scientific study has shown
(4:53:20 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:53:46 PM) david: Here’s the difference
(4:53:53 PM) david: What is your reason for beleiving in god?
(4:54:04 PM) david: Humor me and answer
(4:54:30 PM) Sola Fide: you’ve already heard of the Transcendental Argument for God’s existance right
(4:54:31 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:54:57 PM) Sola Fide: if there is no God
(4:55:06 PM) Sola Fide: there are no laws of logic, morality and nature
(4:55:29 PM) Sola Fide: all we have is chaos
(4:55:32 PM) david: Agreed
(4:55:45 PM) Sola Fide: we can’t prove anything
(4:56:35 PM) david: Why invent god though
(4:56:40 PM) david: The universe is already here
(4:56:40 PM) Sola Fide: I start with God as the basis for everything I know
(4:56:48 PM) david: Why not start with the universe
(4:57:03 PM) Sola Fide: because I don’t believe the universe defines itself
(4:57:12 PM) david: why
(4:57:13 PM) david: Why though
(4:57:14 PM) Sola Fide: let alone sustain itself
(4:57:21 PM) david: Why can’t it define itself?
(4:58:13 PM) david: hello?
(4:59:18 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not intelligent
(5:00:23 PM) david: wanna talk on the phone?
(5:00:27 PM) Sola Fide: no
(5:00:29 PM) david: Alright
(5:00:32 PM) david: Well have a good one
(5:00:34 PM) david: I have to go
(5:00:35 PM) Sola Fide: I think we’ve chatted enough
(5:00:41 PM) Sola Fide: bye

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000015912 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000015892 (4:17:34 PM) Sola Fide: busy?
(4:17:38 PM) david: nah
(4:17:52 PM) david: What’s good
(4:18:10 PM) Sola Fide: I believe you understand my argumentation
(4:18:27 PM) david: I do
(4:18:43 PM) david: But I think your going from the general to the specific
(4:18:54 PM) david: What did you call the reason you believe in god again?
(4:18:56 PM) david: TAG?
(4:18:59 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:19:09 PM) david: What does it stand for
(4:19:10 PM) Sola Fide: the Transcendental Argument for God’s existance
(4:19:28 PM) david: Right
(4:19:30 PM) Sola Fide: yes I start with the general
(4:19:43 PM) david: What I am saying
(4:19:56 PM) Sola Fide: I start with what needs to be true in order to make sense of human experience
(4:19:57 PM) david: is that you are saying there is a nessicity for things, which is an opinion
(4:20:00 PM) david: like laws of logic
(4:20:02 PM) david: absolutes
(4:20:12 PM) Sola Fide: you can’t avoid absolutes
(4:20:15 PM) david: and in your mind that proves the nessecary existance
(4:20:22 PM) Sola Fide: denying them presupposes them
(4:20:29 PM) david: What I am saying is that the nessecity is conceptual only
(4:20:38 PM) david: We are bound to the limits of our mind
(4:20:41 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(4:20:52 PM) Sola Fide: denying them presuppposes them
(4:21:02 PM) david: I deny the easter bunny.
(4:21:20 PM) Sola Fide: I’m talking about God as sovereign over all things
(4:21:31 PM) david: And your reason is TAG
(4:21:32 PM) Sola Fide: the precondition for the existance of any law
(4:21:41 PM) david: But for TAG to work God has to exist
(4:21:48 PM) Sola Fide: I start with God
(4:21:56 PM) david: No you don’t
(4:21:59 PM) Sola Fide: without him nothing makes sense
(4:22:01 PM) Sola Fide: you I do
(4:22:01 PM) david: You start with electrons in your brain
(4:22:05 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:22:13 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t start with reason
(4:22:32 PM) david: You can’t start with the specific
(4:22:36 PM) david: You have to start with the general
(4:22:38 PM) Sola Fide: I reason in light of God’s standards of reasoning
(4:22:41 PM) david: Like a baby
(4:22:49 PM) david: Assume totally un-knowledge
(4:22:54 PM) david: Knowing nothing
(4:22:58 PM) david: And learning from the beginning
(4:23:00 PM) Sola Fide: blank slate?
(4:23:02 PM) david: You cannot start wih god
(4:23:06 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:23:15 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t start with my existance
(4:23:18 PM) Sola Fide: since God created me
(4:23:33 PM) Sola Fide: no I’m not like Rene Descartes
(4:23:40 PM) Sola Fide: I think therefore I am
(4:23:41 PM) Sola Fide: bah
(4:23:50 PM) david: You don’t know about god
(4:23:53 PM) david: You are blank
(4:24:02 PM) Sola Fide: so God is unknowable?
(4:24:33 PM) david: Your going to say that without a bible or other human teaching of christianity I would know about it?
(4:24:50 PM) Sola Fide: ??
(4:24:56 PM) Sola Fide: rephrase the question
(4:26:01 PM) david: Would a person born in an atheist nation, where all people never once talked about god or religion of mythcism of any kind, would that person have any idea of christianity?
(4:26:30 PM) Sola Fide: everyone knows that God is the creator of all things
(4:26:43 PM) Sola Fide: that’s enough to hold everyone accountable
(4:26:54 PM) david: That makes absolutely no sense.
(4:27:08 PM) Sola Fide: nobody can miss out the natural world
(4:27:31 PM) Sola Fide: people know about Christ because God sends people to evangelize
(4:27:32 PM) david: Except me… and all other non-beleivers
(4:27:43 PM) Sola Fide: you know God
(4:27:47 PM) Sola Fide: but you deny him
(4:27:55 PM) david: Do you deny the easter bunny?
(4:28:03 PM) david: Do you deny thor?
(4:28:11 PM) Sola Fide: the easter bunny isn’t sovereign over all things
(4:28:17 PM) Sola Fide: neither is Thor
(4:28:20 PM) Sola Fide: Zeus
(4:28:22 PM) Sola Fide: Marduk
(4:28:31 PM) david: And how do you know God is?
(4:28:41 PM) Sola Fide: God has revealed himself
(4:28:48 PM) Sola Fide: through creation
(4:29:33 PM) Sola Fide: you just adopt a different standard
(4:29:39 PM) Sola Fide: while denying him
(4:29:45 PM) david: I don’t get it.
(4:29:54 PM) david: I feel like you know you are stating circular logic
(4:29:57 PM) david: And you just don’t care.
(4:29:57 PM) Sola Fide: God doesn’t fit YOUR standards
(4:30:08 PM) david: And I don’t know how we can get anywhere else
(4:30:13 PM) Sola Fide: yes it’s circular logic
(4:30:21 PM) Sola Fide: everyone engages in circular logic
(4:30:29 PM) Sola Fide: because everyone has a final authority
(4:30:41 PM) david: But you aren’t saying ANYTHING
(4:30:44 PM) david: God is soveriegn
(4:30:45 PM) david: why?
(4:30:51 PM) david: Because he has to be
(4:30:52 PM) david: Why
(4:30:53 PM) Sola Fide: that’s my starting point
(4:30:56 PM) david: Because he is soveriegn
(4:30:59 PM) david: There’s not point
(4:31:06 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t question God since He is the final authroity
(4:31:09 PM) david: Its like saying random words
(4:31:24 PM) david: There’s no rationality behind it
(4:31:26 PM) david: It makes no sense
(4:31:30 PM) david: This because this.
(4:31:32 PM) Sola Fide: asking why leads to infinite regress
(4:31:41 PM) Sola Fide: what is rational?
(4:31:43 PM) david: just believe something, anything?
(4:31:47 PM) Sola Fide: who defines what is rational
(4:31:48 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:31:51 PM) david: Listen, stop reducing…
(4:31:56 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:31:59 PM) david: We both know how rational conversation works.
(4:32:01 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not arbitrary
(4:32:05 PM) david: That is what I am talking about
(4:32:06 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:32:12 PM) david: So you don’t know?
(4:32:16 PM) Sola Fide: what’s rational for one person is not for someone else
(4:32:16 PM) david: You did go to college?
(4:32:26 PM) david: Right, but you KNOW what I am talking about
(4:32:34 PM) david: The way everything works
(4:32:34 PM) Sola Fide: I’m a philosophy student
(4:32:37 PM) david: Common sense
(4:32:47 PM) david: Why throw it ALL out for god
(4:32:51 PM) Sola Fide: Common sense is philosophically BANKRUPT
(4:33:12 PM) david: Why would you throw away all normal considerations when talking about god?
(4:33:14 PM) Sola Fide: when you get critical about “common sense” you’ll see it makes NO SENSE
(4:33:46 PM) Sola Fide: because “normal” considerations does NOT necessarily lead to right conclusions
(4:33:59 PM) david: Common Sense, makes total sense, our brains evolved a certain way that every human has a similair sense of things. In evolutionary science this is completely true. Do you understand what I am saying?
(4:34:31 PM) Sola Fide: in a postmodern world
(4:34:43 PM) Sola Fide: people have different beliefs
(4:34:50 PM) david: What I am saying is that everyone thinks similiary
(4:34:52 PM) david: That’s all.
(4:34:54 PM) Sola Fide: different standards of reasoning
(4:35:01 PM) Sola Fide: NO WAY
(4:35:17 PM) david: Similiary
(4:35:21 PM) david: The identically
(4:35:24 PM) david: the = not
(4:35:36 PM) Sola Fide: argument ad populum?
(4:35:50 PM) Sola Fide: a consensus brings about truth?
(4:35:57 PM) Sola Fide: doesn’t that sound arbitrary
(4:35:58 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:36:39 PM) Sola Fide: even within the Christian communities
(4:36:47 PM) Sola Fide: there are all sorts of beliefs
(4:37:08 PM) Sola Fide: there is much diversity in today’s culture
(4:37:10 PM) david: No
(4:37:21 PM) david: Im just saying that everyone general thinks similiarly
(4:37:24 PM) david: That’s it
(4:37:28 PM) david: Im not saying it means anything
(4:37:35 PM) Sola Fide: even if I grant that
(4:37:37 PM) Sola Fide: SO WHAT?
(4:38:14 PM) david: :/
(4:38:21 PM) david: We are stalemated
(4:38:27 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(4:38:33 PM) Sola Fide: you are running into skepticism
(4:38:41 PM) david: and I believe you are
(4:38:47 PM) Sola Fide: no I’m not
(4:38:53 PM) david: you absolutely are
(4:38:55 PM) Sola Fide: I believe in objective truth
(4:39:04 PM) Sola Fide: I have good reason to
(4:39:15 PM) david: You have no reason to.
(4:39:16 PM) david: lol
(4:39:31 PM) Sola Fide: You have no reason to. <– by what standard?
(4:39:48 PM) david: You have not explained an answer that makes any sense to me.
(4:39:57 PM) Sola Fide: I’ll say it again
(4:40:10 PM) Sola Fide: God does not exist for you because He doesn’t fit YOUR standards
(4:40:54 PM) david: He doesn’t exist for me because I see no reason he needs to exist and have never felt his existance or pressence
(4:43:05 PM) Sola Fide: your simply demonstrating my point
(4:43:21 PM) david: That statements makes no sense.
(4:43:34 PM) Sola Fide: what determines what makes sense?
(4:43:42 PM) david: I don’t understand how you can say it
(4:43:44 PM) david: I don’t get it
(4:43:45 PM) david: At all
(4:43:58 PM) Sola Fide: because you are using a completely different standard
(4:44:02 PM) Sola Fide: different starting point
(4:44:22 PM) Sola Fide: you start with YOUR experience and YOUR reasoning
(4:44:25 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t
(4:44:46 PM) david: Yep, I still aren’t following you
(4:44:51 PM) david: Its like a kid spitting gibberish
(4:45:17 PM) Sola Fide: do you agree that you have different starting point?
(4:45:41 PM) david: In a very very very abstract sense yes
(4:46:23 PM) Sola Fide: it’s like this
(4:46:53 PM) Sola Fide: God runs a hotel with a set of rules.. he has the right to since he owns the hotle
(4:47:19 PM) Sola Fide: you live in the hotel but don’t like the rules and would like to kick God out
(4:47:28 PM) david: NO
(4:47:33 PM) david: Completely wrong
(4:47:37 PM) david: If god does exists
(4:47:41 PM) david: And I am in his hotel
(4:47:55 PM) david: I am under the misconception that the hotel has always been there
(4:48:00 PM) david: and doesn’t have an owner
(4:48:15 PM) Sola Fide: the hotel runs on its own
(4:48:21 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:48:24 PM) Sola Fide: you live in it
(4:48:33 PM) Sola Fide: so you run it however you want
(4:48:33 PM) david: yes
(4:48:41 PM) david: Sure I guess
(4:48:43 PM) Sola Fide: declare your autonomy
(4:48:46 PM) david: Its still a hotel though
(4:49:03 PM) david: Delcare my autonomy?
(4:49:59 PM) david: Just because I don’t KNOW that I actually live in America instead of Canada, does not make me a Canadian
(4:50:04 PM) david: I am still an American
(4:50:09 PM) david: Im just clueless to the fact I am
(4:51:43 PM) Sola Fide: forget national borders
(4:51:53 PM) Sola Fide: the hotel is like the earth
(4:52:03 PM) david: ok
(4:53:13 PM) Sola Fide: If I was a consistent atheist
(4:53:42 PM) david: ?
(4:54:06 PM) Sola Fide: there’s no reason to conform to any standard
(4:54:06 PM) Sola Fide: anything goes
(4:54:22 PM) david: ok?
(4:54:37 PM) Sola Fide: therefore I can’t make any arguments
(4:54:39 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:54:48 PM) david: ok
(4:54:57 PM) Sola Fide: just keep silent
(4:55:01 PM) Sola Fide: no debate
(4:55:04 PM) david: I mean
(4:55:09 PM) david: Your telling me what you would do
(4:55:16 PM) david: Im not really sure how I can argue against it
(4:55:39 PM) david: I’m not really sure what the point of rape and murder and chaos
(4:55:41 PM) david: and no order
(4:55:50 PM) david: or ideals of any kind mechanical or absolute are…
(4:56:10 PM) david: But you could live like that
(4:56:29 PM) david: im sure lots of people do
(4:57:36 PM) Sola Fide: the skeptic isn’t neutral in judgment though
(4:57:56 PM) david: I agree, you aren’t neutral
(4:57:57 PM) david: I am
(4:58:07 PM) Sola Fide: you claim to be
(4:58:22 PM) Sola Fide: but with close examination you are actually not
(4:58:29 PM) david: Makes no sense.
(4:58:39 PM) david: You can’t just say shit
(4:58:47 PM) david: That doesn’t mean anything and expect me to understand
(4:58:50 PM) Sola Fide: Makes no sense. <— this is not neutral
(4:59:02 PM) david: It has to be
(4:59:11 PM) david: The limits of by understanding aren’t neutral?
(4:59:18 PM) david: Not knowing spanish?
(4:59:44 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know that your understanding is limited
(4:59:46 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:59:54 PM) Sola Fide: that’s a dogmatic assertions
(4:59:58 PM) david: Because what your saying does not make sense to me
(5:00:05 PM) david: I don’t see how you can to say it
(5:00:07 PM) david: or believe it
(5:00:13 PM) Sola Fide: oh so you condemn what I say
(5:00:26 PM) david: No?
(5:00:32 PM) david: Do you condemn spanish?
(5:00:37 PM) david: It’s identical.
(5:00:45 PM) Sola Fide: we’re talking about our beliefs
(5:00:48 PM) david: Yes
(5:00:48 PM) Sola Fide: not languages
(5:00:52 PM) david: Its the same thing.
(5:00:54 PM) Sola Fide: no
(5:00:57 PM) david: Yes it is.
(5:01:00 PM) david: It doesn’t make sense
(5:01:01 PM) david: I don’t get it
(5:01:10 PM) david: I don’t get how you magically spawn god from nothing
(5:01:16 PM) david: That doesn’t mak any sense wahtsoever
(5:01:25 PM) david: Its just like someone saying 1+1=2 to spanish
(5:01:29 PM) david: Wouldn’t make any sense
(5:03:56 PM) Sola Fide: our discussions are quite good so far
(5:04:22 PM) Sola Fide: I can lead you to understand where I’m coming from
(5:04:30 PM) Sola Fide: but I can’t of course change your mind
(5:04:39 PM) david: I totally understand where you come from
(5:04:42 PM) david: But I don’t get it.
(5:04:48 PM) david: I don’t get why you make up a god
(5:04:50 PM) david: Why why why!
(5:04:53 PM) david: Why god?
(5:04:56 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t make up God
(5:04:59 PM) david: Do you understand my delema?
(5:05:01 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t create Him
(5:05:08 PM) Sola Fide: God created me
(5:05:14 PM) david: Who created you?
(5:05:16 PM) Sola Fide: you reverse everything
(5:05:34 PM) david: But where do you get God from?
(5:05:46 PM) Sola Fide: I told you
(5:06:00 PM) Sola Fide: He reveals himself through the natural world He created
(5:06:07 PM) david: It says made by god?
(5:06:16 PM) david: It says a conciousness made this?
(5:06:23 PM) Sola Fide: no
(5:06:31 PM) david: So where did he come from
(5:06:32 PM) Sola Fide: order in the world
(5:06:43 PM) Sola Fide: there are no accidents
(5:06:49 PM) david: Appears as if there could be a god.
(5:06:56 PM) david: But it doesn’t write god in the sky
(5:07:03 PM) david: Why do you deny the possible there isn’t a god
(5:07:11 PM) david: Why couldn’t the universe have existed forever
(5:07:30 PM) Sola Fide: why doesn’t the earth explode right now
(5:07:31 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(5:07:37 PM) david: it could
(5:07:40 PM) Sola Fide: the sun go supernova
(5:07:47 PM) david: it very well could
(5:07:58 PM) Sola Fide: it doesn’t care
(5:08:08 PM) david: I don’t get it.
(5:08:16 PM) david: I don’t get why the universe has to have a personality.
(5:08:19 PM) Sola Fide: so it’s silly to say that the universe is self-governed
(5:08:21 PM) david: It doesn’t make sense to me.
(5:08:27 PM) david: God is self-government
(5:08:30 PM) david: IDENTICAL
(5:09:08 PM) david: I have to go
(5:09:10 PM) david: have a good one
(5:09:15 PM) Sola Fide: bye

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000019807 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000019787 (3:25:38 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:25:44 PM) david: hi
(3:25:51 PM) david: Listen
(3:26:10 PM) david: I understand that when you take GOD first
(3:26:16 PM) david: Your way of thinking makes sense
(3:26:19 PM) david: Totally.
(3:26:20 PM) david: It has to
(3:26:32 PM) david: But, what about people that do not have a knowledge of God
(3:26:39 PM) david: You would deny that there are people like this
(3:26:41 PM) david: Correct?
(3:26:48 PM) Sola Fide: everyone has knowledge of God as creator of all things
(3:26:51 PM) david: Okay
(3:26:59 PM) david: Well there-in is the difference between us
(3:27:04 PM) david: Its the only difference
(3:27:19 PM) david: And neither of us can convince the other one that they are wrong
(3:27:58 PM) Sola Fide: I can’t change your mind
(3:28:02 PM) Sola Fide: but I can give reasons
(3:28:38 PM) Sola Fide: I believe God is the one who changes a person’s bias
(3:28:44 PM) david: But your reasons are no good to me
(3:28:51 PM) david: You say the universe implies a Conciousness
(3:28:57 PM) Sola Fide: yes “to me”
(3:28:59 PM) david: And that conciousness is God
(3:29:08 PM) david: Because the bible says so
(3:29:17 PM) david: To me that is totally and completely idiotic
(3:29:31 PM) Sola Fide: unless you have iuniversal standards of reasoning
(3:29:38 PM) Sola Fide: everything is relative
(3:29:43 PM) Sola Fide: and arbitrary
(3:29:55 PM) david: I understand totally.
(3:29:55 PM) Sola Fide: Christian theism allows for absolutes
(3:30:00 PM) Sola Fide: atheism does not
(3:30:19 PM) david: But you have not given me any reason why this absolute has to be the christian god
(3:30:21 PM) david: OR
(3:30:23 PM) david: a conciousness
(3:31:05 PM) Sola Fide: pagan gods are not sovereign over all things
(3:31:43 PM) david: You agree that I could make a book about a soveriregn god
(3:31:50 PM) david: That was totally unlike the christian god
(3:31:54 PM) david: No heaven or hell
(3:31:55 PM) david: no jesus
(3:31:57 PM) david: no sin
(3:32:22 PM) david: That would fill the prerequisite for the absolute nature of a god
(3:32:29 PM) david: And could explain the origin of the universe
(3:33:26 PM) Sola Fide: so you’re saying that the Bible’s contents are made up?
(3:33:32 PM) david: No im asking if I could do that
(3:33:43 PM) Sola Fide: yes anyone can
(3:33:51 PM) david: Would it fill the prereqs
(3:33:58 PM) david: And explain the origin of the universe
(3:33:58 PM) Sola Fide: but they’ll profess that’s their made up content
(3:34:23 PM) david: And I say it’s true
(3:34:27 PM) david: And I start a religion around it
(3:34:36 PM) david: and in 2000 years the majority of earth believes it
(3:34:47 PM) david: Will it be true or justifiable to believe in?
(3:36:28 PM) david: Hello?
(3:36:43 PM) Sola Fide: no because it would have to be consistent with the bible
(3:37:18 PM) david: So all other gods, people made up
(3:37:27 PM) david: But as soon as they realized that a god could be monotheist
(3:37:33 PM) david: That first one is the only real god
(3:38:53 PM) Sola Fide: well we look back at how God has revealed himself through written tradition
(3:39:11 PM) david: Identical to every other god.
(3:39:12 PM) david: ?
(3:39:55 PM) Sola Fide: you can’t harmonize every idea of who God is
(3:40:34 PM) Sola Fide: you can’t make the God of the Bible compatible with the Greek Gods
(3:41:29 PM) david: means nothing
(3:41:39 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:41:46 PM) david: I mean explain it
(3:41:49 PM) david: Just saying that means nothing
(3:41:51 PM) Sola Fide: that’s because you reject the supernatural
(3:42:52 PM) david: Why can there not be multiple gods?
(3:42:57 PM) david: If one god is supreme over them all?
(3:43:12 PM) Sola Fide: polythiestic gods are not sovereign over all
(3:43:24 PM) david: Sure they are
(3:43:47 PM) Sola Fide: one God who created everything
(3:44:03 PM) david: God, Jesus, Holy Ghost
(3:44:05 PM) david: That’s 3
(3:44:05 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t have that in Greek Mythology
(3:44:11 PM) Sola Fide: that’s the Triune God
(3:44:18 PM) Sola Fide: still monotheism
(3:44:22 PM) david: Oh right, 3 = 1
(3:44:23 PM) david: By bad
(3:44:26 PM) david: My bad.
(3:44:40 PM) Sola Fide: God in 3 persons with one essence
(3:45:10 PM) david: And why can multiple gods, who equally create the universe not be true
(3:45:22 PM) david: Why does everything have to come from 1
(3:45:24 PM) david: why not 2
(3:45:26 PM) david: equal halfs
(3:45:29 PM) david: jointly creating
(3:46:11 PM) Sola Fide: I’m talking about creation out of nothing
(3:46:17 PM) david: Ok?
(3:46:31 PM) david: So were 2 of them
(3:46:39 PM) david: And they jointly created something out of nothing
(3:46:59 PM) Sola Fide: both are sovereign?
(3:47:07 PM) david: They are sovereign
(3:47:17 PM) Sola Fide: then both would compete against each other
(3:47:25 PM) david: That’s a human ideal
(3:47:29 PM) david: Or can compare it to god
(3:47:32 PM) david: or = you
(3:47:43 PM) Sola Fide: if two Gods are required to create
(3:47:50 PM) Sola Fide: then one is dependent on the other
(3:47:54 PM) david: No.
(3:48:07 PM) david: How?
(3:48:11 PM) david: How do you know that
(3:48:19 PM) david: Your making it up
(3:48:20 PM) Sola Fide: you’re saying that one God is not enough to create
(3:48:25 PM) david: No im not
(3:48:27 PM) Sola Fide: you need two
(3:48:35 PM) Sola Fide: you’re implying that
(3:48:39 PM) david: No im not
(3:49:11 PM) david: I see no problem with 2 gods
(3:49:38 PM) david: It doesn’t take 2
(3:49:40 PM) david: There are 2
(3:49:48 PM) david: And they work together
(3:49:50 PM) Sola Fide: then who creates
(3:49:52 PM) david: That is how they work
(3:49:56 PM) david: They create
(3:49:59 PM) Sola Fide: they HAVE to work together?
(3:50:08 PM) david: They do work together
(3:50:20 PM) Sola Fide: which one is more powerful?
(3:50:32 PM) david: No such concept
(3:50:35 PM) david: That’s a human idea
(3:50:36 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(3:50:41 PM) Sola Fide: they are equal?
(3:50:56 PM) david: In a general sense
(3:51:08 PM) david: But in the godly sense, they are just themselves
(3:51:55 PM) Sola Fide: so they must share co-regency
(3:51:57 PM) david: Why do you put yout human concepts on god?
(3:52:01 PM) david: or gods in this case?
(3:52:05 PM) david: You can’t compare them
(3:52:09 PM) david: With human ideals
(3:52:15 PM) david: What makes you think they would compete
(3:52:19 PM) david: Or do anything less than perfect
(3:52:37 PM) Sola Fide: the God of the bible doesn’t share anything with anyone
(3:52:47 PM) david: Okay cool
(3:52:53 PM) david: But where is the fallacy in 2 gods
(3:52:58 PM) david: or all gods
(3:53:26 PM) Sola Fide: your assertion means that one God shares something with the other God
(3:53:42 PM) david: They share nothing
(3:53:48 PM) david: They are both themselves
(3:53:51 PM) david: Sharing is human concept
(3:54:21 PM) david: They both contain the “essence” of godliness
(3:54:35 PM) david: Just like your GOD and Jesus and two distinct characters
(3:54:41 PM) david: and = are
(3:54:56 PM) Sola Fide: there is only ONE sovereign
(3:55:04 PM) david: So God is soveriregn
(3:55:06 PM) david: or jesus?
(3:55:12 PM) david: Or mary?
(3:55:16 PM) david: lol jk last one
(3:55:22 PM) david: Who is sovereign
(3:55:26 PM) david: God or Jesus
(3:55:44 PM) Sola Fide: both are
(3:55:56 PM) david: Even though you admit they are two different characters
(3:56:00 PM) Sola Fide: God the Father and God the Son (Jesus)
(3:56:03 PM) david: two different personalities
(3:56:23 PM) Sola Fide: two different persons with different roles
(3:56:26 PM) david: As long as they contain the same essence?
(3:56:29 PM) david: They are one?
(3:56:33 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:56:39 PM) david: No matter what they look like, how they act
(3:56:40 PM) david: etc?
(3:57:14 PM) david: So zeus and thor and posiden, etc etc etc, all being GODS and having the godly essence is totally different how?
(3:57:52 PM) Sola Fide: polytheism does teach that all the gods have the same essence
(3:57:57 PM) Sola Fide: whoope
(3:58:01 PM) Sola Fide: does NOT teach
(3:58:03 PM) david: Where does it say that in the bible
(3:58:24 PM) david: Is it true to say that Jesus created the Universe?
(3:58:37 PM) Sola Fide: does Thor claim to be the creator of all things
(3:58:38 PM) Sola Fide: NO
(3:58:49 PM) david: Did Jesus create the Universe
(3:59:46 PM) david: ?
(4:00:30 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:00:53 PM) david: I don’t get it
(4:01:11 PM) Sola Fide: all three persons of the Trinity had their own role in creation
(4:01:11 PM) david: Show me scripture
(4:01:20 PM) david: THEIR OWN ROLE?
(4:01:25 PM) david: THEY SHARED POWERS?
(4:01:42 PM) david: Sounds pretty contradictive to what you were just saying
(4:01:59 PM) Sola Fide: Colossians 1:13 onward
(4:02:07 PM) Sola Fide: no they don’t share powers
(4:02:26 PM) Sola Fide: all three are omnipotent
(4:02:45 PM) Sola Fide: but each person has a role to play
(4:03:07 PM) david: ok fine
(4:03:22 PM) david: It makes no sense to me
(4:03:25 PM) david: But I get what your saying
(4:03:32 PM) Sola Fide: your boss is “equal” to you but has different role than you have in your company
(4:03:45 PM) david: 3 = 1
(4:03:52 PM) david: I understand that you believe this.
(4:04:04 PM) Sola Fide: 3 does not equal one
(4:04:13 PM) Sola Fide: God in 3 persons
(4:04:17 PM) david: Jesus is different then God, yes or no?
(4:04:31 PM) Sola Fide: Jesus is different from God the Father
(4:04:35 PM) david: Okay
(4:04:37 PM) david: so 3 = 1
(4:05:12 PM) david: Jesus is different then God, but Jesus is God.
(4:05:16 PM) Sola Fide: 3 in person not in essence
(4:05:22 PM) Sola Fide: different in person
(4:05:25 PM) Sola Fide: not essence
(4:05:50 PM) david: These are just words
(4:05:54 PM) david: What is an essence
(4:05:56 PM) david: what is a person
(4:06:01 PM) david: God the father is a person
(4:06:12 PM) Sola Fide: everything has an essence
(4:06:13 PM) david: We are talking about Uniques
(4:06:21 PM) david: Jesus is unique to God
(4:06:27 PM) david: The holy spirit is unique to both
(4:06:30 PM) david: That is 3 uniques
(4:06:31 PM) Sola Fide: a rock a tree a bush
(4:06:36 PM) Sola Fide: not everything is personal
(4:06:41 PM) david: 3 uniques do not equal 1 god
(4:06:47 PM) david: I understand that you believe it
(4:06:49 PM) Sola Fide: unique in what way
(4:07:00 PM) Sola Fide: you’re equivocating
(4:07:16 PM) david: Unique in the way you consider everything else you have ever thought about besides god.
(4:07:41 PM) Sola Fide: ???
(4:08:12 PM) david: Could god make 3 rocks, that all had the same essence
(4:09:30 PM) david: ?
(4:10:16 PM) Sola Fide: rocks are not personal
(4:10:18 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:10:23 PM) david: But could he?
(4:10:48 PM) Sola Fide: 3 rocks have 3 essences
(4:11:02 PM) david: So he couldn’t do it?
(4:11:14 PM) Sola Fide: it would be a contradiction
(4:11:23 PM) david: god can’t make contradictions?
(4:11:26 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:11:38 PM) david: God an do anything?
(4:11:58 PM) david: Alright
(4:12:01 PM) david: We are too divergent
(4:12:04 PM) david: I can’t talk about this
(4:12:36 PM) david: Why a christian god
(4:12:57 PM) david: Why not any other monotheistic god?
(4:13:12 PM) Sola Fide: vs Judaism and Islam
(4:13:17 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:13:18 PM) david: No
(4:13:27 PM) david: there are plenty beofr judaism
(4:13:27 PM) Sola Fide: Zoroastrianism
(4:13:28 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:13:33 PM) Sola Fide: like?
(4:14:27 PM) david: zoro sure
(4:15:23 PM) Sola Fide: Zoroastrianism is dualistic
(4:15:53 PM) david: Okay
(4:15:54 PM) david: Stop.
(4:15:56 PM) Sola Fide: Good and evil are both roughly equal in power
(4:15:58 PM) david: Im not talking about that
(4:16:01 PM) Sola Fide: ok
(4:16:10 PM) david: Im talking about ANY monotheistic god
(4:16:18 PM) Sola Fide: whici one
(4:16:19 PM) david: Can you say what man does is right
(4:16:25 PM) david: ?
(4:16:26 PM) Sola Fide: you have to be specific
(4:16:29 PM) david: No you don’t
(4:17:18 PM) david: Like the conceptual religion
(4:17:30 PM) david: The building blocks of christianity judaism islam etc
(4:17:32 PM) david: Like
(4:17:37 PM) david: Substance Monotheism
(4:18:14 PM) david: Deism
(4:18:15 PM) david: etc
(4:19:40 PM) Sola Fide: substance Monotheism?
(4:19:46 PM) david: Native American religions also
(4:19:51 PM) david: You don’t know what that is?
(4:20:10 PM) david: There are many gods, but they are all part of one substance
(4:20:45 PM) Sola Fide: creator gods?
(4:20:51 PM) david: Native Americans believe in Panentheism
(4:21:00 PM) Sola Fide: I know
(4:21:02 PM) Sola Fide: animism
(4:21:28 PM) david: No.
(4:21:52 PM) david: I think animism is more of philoshopy about shit like essences and stuff
(4:21:55 PM) david: not a religion
(4:22:04 PM) david: Indians believe that the universe is part of god
(4:22:07 PM) david: And god is everything
(4:22:18 PM) david: that is Panentheism
(4:22:40 PM) david: Way older than christianity
(4:23:37 PM) david: The history of Judaism, being pagan and shit, being polytheistic…. It’s transformation into Christianity… Christianity’s transformation into Islam means nothing to you?
(4:23:56 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:24:04 PM) david: “Who’s history. The bible is the only truth.”
(4:24:09 PM) david: “God is supreme.”
(4:24:10 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t believe in some evolutionary theory for Christianity
(4:24:11 PM) david: …
(4:24:21 PM) david: I know which makes no sense
(4:24:30 PM) david: I choose to ignore what happened
(4:26:10 PM) david: Do you understand where I am coming from
(4:26:20 PM) david: I feel like you are really close-minded
(4:26:25 PM) david: All your statements start with god
(4:26:33 PM) david: My start with a variety of different sources
(4:26:36 PM) david: And could start with god
(4:26:42 PM) david: ALL of yours start with god
(4:26:59 PM) david: And not just god
(4:27:02 PM) david: A christian god.
(4:28:12 PM) Sola Fide: that’s because I recognize the law of non-contradiction
(4:28:39 PM) Sola Fide: it’s impossible to reconcile christian theism with panentheism, animism, pantheism, etc
(4:28:56 PM) david: But its not impossible to be open-minded to those ideas you dick.
(4:29:05 PM) david: You don’t even consider them
(4:29:25 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not postmodern
(4:29:35 PM) Sola Fide: you dick.<==== LOL
(4:29:36 PM) Sola Fide: hehe
(4:29:38 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:29:48 PM) david: Well you call me close-minded
(4:30:01 PM) david: When you are sitting here, talking like this big asshole that will not consider ANYTHING
(4:30:02 PM) Sola Fide: no I didn’t call you that
(4:30:07 PM) david: I know
(4:30:32 PM) Sola Fide: I don’t conflate what God has created with Himself
(4:30:37 PM) Sola Fide: I am a creature
(4:30:39 PM) Sola Fide: not God
(4:30:47 PM) david: For example, I say “Imagine Thor created the universe.”
(4:30:55 PM) david: and you say “God created the universe.”
(4:31:00 PM) david: Close minded.
(4:33:15 PM) Sola Fide: Thor is no omnipotent
(4:33:19 PM) Sola Fide: Yahweh is
(4:33:27 PM) Sola Fide: HUGE difference
(4:33:34 PM) david: That’s like me saying
(4:33:38 PM) david: I’m right, and you are wrong.
(4:33:40 PM) david: Done.
(4:34:08 PM) david: God does not exist.
(4:34:12 PM) david: Done.
(4:34:17 PM) david: Why?
(4:34:22 PM) david: Because he doesn’t.
(4:34:23 PM) david: Done.
(4:35:35 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not postmodern
(4:35:42 PM) david: ?
(4:35:42 PM) Sola Fide: I won’t say this is just opinion
(4:35:44 PM) david: what does that mean
(4:35:52 PM) Sola Fide: I’m no relativist
(4:35:53 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:36:23 PM) Sola Fide: and yes I believe you are wrong
(4:36:50 PM) Sola Fide: there’s is no comparison between Thor and Yahweh
(4:37:30 PM) david: :/
(4:38:33 PM) david: I hate it.
(4:38:49 PM) david: It kills me that people can think so differently
(4:38:56 PM) david: And we both are totally sure of ourselves
(4:38:58 PM) Sola Fide: hating it is not an argument
(4:39:04 PM) david: Im just talking right now
(4:40:55 PM) david: like whatever I say to argue
(4:41:06 PM) david: you can basically just say, but listen hunny, god is sovereign
(4:41:09 PM) david: and no matter what I have said
(4:41:11 PM) david: doesn’t matter
(4:41:23 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not about you
(4:41:32 PM) Sola Fide: I examine the arguments per se
(4:41:37 PM) david: ?
(4:41:47 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not about me either
(4:41:58 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not here to protect my ego
(4:42:32 PM) Sola Fide: if I am protecting my ego then that goes against my beliefs
(4:42:42 PM) Sola Fide: it would be grossly inconsistent
(4:42:53 PM) david: I don’t care
(4:42:59 PM) david: I have no idea what you are talking about
(4:43:22 PM) Sola Fide: I think you are in rebellion against God the creator of all things
(4:43:27 PM) Sola Fide: that’s a sin
(4:43:43 PM) Sola Fide: and you need to acknowledge it
(4:43:47 PM) david: haha
(4:43:57 PM) Sola Fide: and embrace Jesus as Lord and Saviour
(4:43:59 PM) david: God, that’s crazy
(4:44:15 PM) david: I cannot wait until they invent medication for your delusion
(4:44:33 PM) david: Think about the decline in war! And murder! and drug use…
(4:44:37 PM) david: Wow, what a releive
(4:44:38 PM) Sola Fide: I can careless about common snese
(4:46:56 PM) Sola Fide: who defines what’s crazy?
(4:46:57 PM) Sola Fide: you?
(4:47:22 PM) david: Dude
(4:47:29 PM) david: I don’t know
(4:47:35 PM) Sola Fide: then you can’t argue
(4:47:38 PM) david: Okay
(4:47:51 PM) david: I just know
(4:47:57 PM) david: That is has never made sense
(4:48:01 PM) david: Nothing you say makes sense
(4:48:03 PM) david: I don’t feel god
(4:48:07 PM) david: I don’t know of god
(4:48:10 PM) david: I don’t miss god
(4:48:14 PM) david: I feel great everyday
(4:48:19 PM) david: I feel totally fulfilled
(4:48:22 PM) david: I love life
(4:48:31 PM) david: I don’t get the point of God.
(4:48:39 PM) david: What do you think is up with that?
(4:49:55 PM) Sola Fide: yes you love living life under whatever rules you make up
(4:50:20 PM) david: Okay.
(4:50:24 PM) david: And im going to hell?
(4:50:45 PM) david: If I died right now.
(4:51:42 PM) Sola Fide: if you die without embracing Jesus
(4:51:43 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:51:56 PM) david:
(4:51:58 PM) david: alright
(4:52:00 PM) david: Well
(4:52:02 PM) david: …
(4:52:18 PM) Sola Fide: I pray that you will
(4:52:22 PM) david: haha
(4:52:24 PM) david: Okay bub
(4:52:46 PM) david: I have to go
(4:52:48 PM) david: Have a greaqt day
(4:52:50 PM) Sola Fide: bye
(4:52:53 PM) Sola Fide: you too

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000009773 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000009753 (4:07:34 PM) david: So why start with God
(4:07:46 PM) Sola Fide: I alreadyy told you
(4:08:00 PM) Sola Fide: God is the precondition for the existance of laws
(4:08:06 PM) david: why?
(4:08:09 PM) david: Says who?
(4:08:15 PM) david: you?
(4:10:23 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:10:32 PM) Sola Fide: I believe God is the final authority
(4:10:38 PM) david: Why
(4:11:00 PM) Sola Fide: you want to regress to no end?
(4:11:18 PM) david: Why is God the final authority
(4:13:28 PM) Sola Fide: you want to regress to no end?
(4:14:26 PM) david: ?
(4:14:38 PM) david: Why is there no end?
(4:14:59 PM) Sola Fide: if there is no God
(4:15:11 PM) Sola Fide: then you only have the nothingness
(4:15:35 PM) david: Who’s says?
(4:15:41 PM) david: You?
(4:16:11 PM) Sola Fide: nihilism is self-refuting
(4:17:20 PM) david: Okay.
(4:17:24 PM) david: Says who?
(4:17:25 PM) david: You?
(4:20:41 PM) Sola Fide: look at the argument itself
(4:21:01 PM) david: Ok
(4:21:03 PM) david: Explain
(4:21:17 PM) Sola Fide: if everything is baseless
(4:21:26 PM) Sola Fide: then nihilism is baseless also
(4:21:26 PM) david: But nhilism is not the only other opinion besides christianity.
(4:24:09 PM) david: hello?
(4:24:25 PM) david: Infinite regress is not the only opinion
(4:24:49 PM) david: But I think if you say “The universe has to have a creator.”
(4:24:54 PM) david: That creator was God.
(4:25:01 PM) david: Then God has to have a creator too.
(4:25:17 PM) david: So christianity, is infinite regress as well.
(4:26:31 PM) Sola Fide: no unless God is eternal
(4:27:17 PM) david: Why can’t the universe be eternal
(4:27:26 PM) david: Why add another layer of complexity
(4:28:17 PM) Sola Fide: because I don’t think it’s rational for nature to behave in a lawlike fashion without God
(4:28:47 PM) david: Why?
(4:29:25 PM) Sola Fide: the earth can explode tomorrow
(4:29:44 PM) Sola Fide: this wouldn’t be if God sustains the earth
(4:30:08 PM) david: I don’t get what the point of that statement is?
(4:30:19 PM) david: You deny chance?
(4:30:22 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:30:24 PM) david: And random events?
(4:30:40 PM) Sola Fide: if chance is what drives everything
(4:30:50 PM) Sola Fide: then I wouldn’t be living
(4:30:57 PM) david: Chance isn’t it.
(4:31:12 PM) david: We are a byproduct of universal entropy
(4:31:43 PM) david: The universe is approaching heat death and we are helping it along its way
(4:32:12 PM) Sola Fide: yes everything is in decay
(4:32:16 PM) Sola Fide: that’s lawlike
(4:32:58 PM) david: Ok, and god has no laws that govern him?
(4:33:03 PM) david: He has no characteristics?
(4:33:07 PM) david: Yes or no?
(4:33:26 PM) Sola Fide: no law is above God
(4:33:35 PM) Sola Fide: yes He has attributes
(4:33:36 PM) david: But laws do govern him?
(4:33:40 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:33:51 PM) david: And he always follows these attritbutes?
(4:34:09 PM) Sola Fide: they are inherent in his nature
(4:34:14 PM) Sola Fide: and character
(4:34:21 PM) david: Kind of like how things are inherent in the universe
(4:34:43 PM) david: Inherency implies conciousness?
(4:34:58 PM) david: Explain any logic how that makes sense
(4:35:04 PM) david: Explain how that makes any sesne at all
(4:37:08 PM) david: Hello?
(4:37:30 PM) Sola Fide: no
(4:37:44 PM) Sola Fide: God is not inherent in the natural world
(4:38:18 PM) Sola Fide: gotta keep the creator and creation separate
(4:38:40 PM) david: Who says so?
(4:39:34 PM) Sola Fide: if you accept God as the creator of all things
(4:39:50 PM) david: I don’t
(4:39:54 PM) Sola Fide: then creation isn’t the same in essence
(4:40:12 PM) david: I don’t B LINDLY accept God is creator
(4:40:19 PM) david: just like you don’t BLINDLY accept he isn’t
(4:40:24 PM) david: You are here to logically prove he is.
(4:40:33 PM) david: Or any need for a God.
(4:40:36 PM) david: Which you haven’t
(4:40:48 PM) david: Or a possibility
(4:40:51 PM) david: Which you haven’t
(4:40:53 PM) Sola Fide: then you must believe that everything is chaotic
(4:41:15 PM) david: I believe you to bet the most close minded person I have ever met.
(4:41:30 PM) david: You can’t even conceive of any alternatives.
(4:42:17 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:42:26 PM) david: God is your starting point.
(4:42:29 PM) david: I know buddy.
(4:42:33 PM) Sola Fide: both atheism and theism cannot be true
(4:43:00 PM) Sola Fide: they are antithetical to each other
(4:43:03 PM) Sola Fide: strongly so
(4:43:33 PM) david: Sure
(4:44:56 PM) Sola Fide: so if one accepts either one
(4:45:04 PM) Sola Fide: he can’t entertain the other
(4:45:11 PM) david: Okay
(4:45:20 PM) david: I am going to argue that I am not an atheist
(4:45:24 PM) david: And I am not a theist
(4:45:27 PM) david: and I am not an agnostic
(4:45:36 PM) david: I do not know if god exists.
(4:45:49 PM) david: But if there is proof he does exists, or any logical reason for him to exist
(4:45:52 PM) david: I will believe in him.
(4:45:55 PM) david: However
(4:45:59 PM) david: As of this point
(4:46:03 PM) david: I see no reason
(4:46:06 PM) david: Or proof
(4:46:08 PM) david: Of his existance.
(4:46:29 PM) Sola Fide: if he were to exist
(4:46:36 PM) Sola Fide: how would you know?
(4:47:09 PM) david: He would physically, emotionally, spritually, scientifically, logically be avalaible to me.
(4:47:16 PM) david: If he is none of those
(4:47:19 PM) david: He cannot exist.
(4:47:31 PM) david: And if he can, he is a very poor god.
(4:47:41 PM) Sola Fide: so you want to impose empiricism huh?
(4:48:04 PM) david: You want to impose christinaity huh?
(4:48:23 PM) david: The base of empiricism is in my mind.
(4:48:24 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not the same
(4:48:28 PM) david: Where is the base of chirtianity?
(4:48:30 PM) david: NO WHERE
(4:48:39 PM) Sola Fide: how do you know you have a mind?
(4:48:54 PM) david: How do you know that you have a god?
(4:49:01 PM) david: NO WHERE?
(4:49:05 PM) david: How do I know
(4:49:08 PM) david: Because I can pick it up
(4:49:10 PM) david: And look at it
(4:49:19 PM) david: And feel it
(4:49:54 PM) Sola Fide: feel empiricism?
(4:50:01 PM) david: my mind
(4:50:09 PM) Sola Fide: huh?
(4:50:20 PM) david: I can feel my mind
(4:50:28 PM) Sola Fide: where’s the evidence for empiricism
(4:50:29 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:50:40 PM) david: where’s the evindence for god?
(4:50:42 PM) david: NO WHERE
(4:50:53 PM) Sola Fide: my friend
(4:50:58 PM) Sola Fide: empiricism isn’t empirical
(4:51:05 PM) Sola Fide: therefore you must reject it
(4:51:12 PM) Sola Fide: any -ism isn’t empirical
(4:51:18 PM) Sola Fide: any belief isn’t empirical
(4:51:38 PM) david: this is crazy
(4:51:53 PM) Sola Fide: I already told you
(4:52:05 PM) Sola Fide: the scientific method is not empirically verified
(4:52:09 PM) Sola Fide: it’s ABSTRACT
(4:52:20 PM) Sola Fide: you can’t put it in a test tube
(4:52:47 PM) david: Are you sure you know what the science method is?

(4:52:51 PM) Sola Fide: therefore empiricism itself fails it’s own test
(4:52:58 PM) david: Testing and testing and testing
(4:53:01 PM) Sola Fide: ok what IS IT?
(4:53:21 PM) david: Do you deny the proofs of the law of gravity
(4:53:26 PM) david: Do you deny the theory of realtivity
(4:53:27 PM) david: ?
(4:53:28 PM) Sola Fide: what IS testing?
(4:53:31 PM) david: Do you deny them?
(4:53:51 PM) Sola Fide: the issue is about beliefs
(4:53:55 PM) Sola Fide: and worldviews
(4:53:55 PM) david: Do you deny them?
(4:54:00 PM) david: Do u deny they are true
(4:54:03 PM) Sola Fide: no Idon’t deny gravity
(4:54:06 PM) david: Okay
(4:54:15 PM) david: But you do deny that sometime we will have a theory of eveyrthing
(4:54:19 PM) david: How the universe occurred
(4:54:25 PM) david: You do deny that?
(4:55:27 PM) Sola Fide: and you hold that the universe is eternal
(4:55:35 PM) Sola Fide: or it’s not
(4:55:36 PM) david: Answer the question.
(4:55:41 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:55:50 PM) david: But if we did.
(4:55:54 PM) david: If we did do that
(4:55:55 PM) Sola Fide: the theory for everything is God as the creator of all things
(4:55:57 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:56:05 PM) david: But if it was something else
(4:56:11 PM) david: Would there be room for god?
(4:56:20 PM) Sola Fide: you’re saying we don’t know?
(4:56:27 PM) david: Yes
(4:56:33 PM) Sola Fide: thne you’re in limbo
(4:56:37 PM) david: If we got to the very center of a quark and god was there
(4:56:40 PM) david: Then god exists
(4:56:42 PM) Sola Fide: and can’t produce any arguments
(4:56:43 PM) david: If we get there
(4:56:50 PM) david: And it says made in china
(4:56:52 PM) david: Then we know
(4:57:18 PM) Sola Fide: God isn’t empirical
(4:57:29 PM) Sola Fide: He’s immaterial
(4:58:01 PM) david: I was making a joke.
(4:58:02 PM) david: Sorry
(4:58:10 PM) Sola Fide: no problemo
(4:58:14 PM) david: Right now we don’t know everything
(4:58:17 PM) david: What if we could
(4:58:23 PM) david: And there was no infinite regress
(4:58:28 PM) david: All questions were answered
(4:58:39 PM) david: YOU believe that’s impossible without god?
(4:59:00 PM) david: Bye
(4:59:06 PM) Sola Fide: adios
(4:59:07 PM) Sola Fide:

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000003095 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000003075 (3:48:59 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:49:16 PM) david: hi there
(3:49:50 PM) david: Who would you compare my philosophy with
(3:49:53 PM) david: Of the greats
(3:49:57 PM) david: Who is most simliar
(3:50:08 PM) Sola Fide: you being an empiricist
(3:50:16 PM) david: Humes?
(3:50:18 PM) Sola Fide: and perhaps a pragmatist
(3:50:24 PM) Sola Fide: no not Hume
(3:50:31 PM) Sola Fide: because he is a skeptic
(3:50:31 PM) david: What is hume?
(3:50:42 PM) david: I don’t get the skeptic part
(3:50:44 PM) david: Can you explain that
(3:50:48 PM) Sola Fide: David Hume the Scottish empiricist
(3:51:01 PM) Sola Fide: Hume was consistent with his empiricism
(3:51:08 PM) Sola Fide: so he became a skeptic
(3:51:18 PM) david: Why skeptic?
(3:51:23 PM) david: Skeptic of what?
(3:51:33 PM) Sola Fide: everything
(3:51:44 PM) david: I don’t get it
(3:51:52 PM) Sola Fide: the external world
(3:51:54 PM) Sola Fide: the self
(3:51:58 PM) david: That it esixts
(3:52:00 PM) david: ??
(3:52:02 PM) Sola Fide: God
(3:52:05 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(3:52:17 PM) Sola Fide: he destroyed metaphysics
(3:52:40 PM) david: ?
(3:52:49 PM) david: I don’t get what you are saying
(3:52:56 PM) david: What is he a skeptic about
(3:55:54 PM) Sola Fide: there is no external world for him
(3:56:01 PM) Sola Fide: there is no self
(3:56:44 PM) Sola Fide: he attacked the notion of causality
(3:57:03 PM) david: ok…
(3:57:10 PM) david: I don’t do this?
(3:58:04 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not a matter of what you o
(3:58:05 PM) Sola Fide: do
(3:58:13 PM) Sola Fide: it’s matter of being consistent
(3:59:09 PM) david: I don’t get it
(4:02:24 PM) Sola Fide: when you adopt a theory of knowledge
(4:02:38 PM) Sola Fide: you have to follow through to it’s logical conclusion
(4:02:41 PM) Sola Fide: that’s what Hume did
(4:03:03 PM) david: to what end
(4:03:09 PM) Sola Fide: to skepticism
(4:03:09 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:03:10 PM) Sola Fide: hehe
(4:03:20 PM) david: Skepticism of hwat?
(4:03:21 PM) Sola Fide: yes poor David Hume
(4:03:23 PM) david: I don’t getr that
(4:03:33 PM) Sola Fide: there is no objective world out there
(4:05:31 PM) david: I would say im a realist
(4:06:03 PM) Sola Fide: there is no reason to be one under empiricism
(4:06:29 PM) david: Im not an empiricist
(4:06:34 PM) david: Im a realist
(4:07:24 PM) Sola Fide: that’s metaphysical claim
(4:07:42 PM) Sola Fide: how would you know that objects are real and independent from us?
(4:08:06 PM) david: I know
(4:08:07 PM) david: You don’t?
(4:08:23 PM) david: You don’t know a chair is real
(4:09:03 PM) Sola Fide: I said “how”
(4:10:18 PM) david: Empiricism I gues
(4:11:51 PM) Sola Fide: you just demonstrated my point
(4:13:10 PM) Sola Fide: the world to our eyes is constantly changing
(4:14:43 PM) david: sigh

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000001397 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000001377 (4:32:40 PM) Sola Fide: the easiest way to debunk empiricism…. like I already mentioned Empiricism is not empirical
(4:33:15 PM) david: You are right
(4:33:19 PM) david: We don’t know everything
(4:33:22 PM) david: So something must
(4:33:30 PM) david: And that something must be a couciousness
(4:33:36 PM) david: That created the world in 6 days
(4:33:43 PM) david: About 4000 years ago
(4:33:52 PM) david: That’s the only possible explanation
(4:33:55 PM) david: I agree
(4:35:08 PM) Sola Fide: I”m not into a 4000 yr old universe
(4:35:10 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:36:32 PM) david: Well whatever
(4:36:35 PM) david: Noahs ark
(4:36:43 PM) david: Some guy living in the stomach of a whale
(4:36:49 PM) david: That’s the only explanation
(4:36:54 PM) david: And if we don’t believe
(4:37:00 PM) david: He allows us to go to hell
(4:37:05 PM) david: I agree
(4:37:11 PM) david: It finally makes a lot of sense
(4:37:24 PM) Sola Fide: you sound sarcastic
(4:37:25 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:37:31 PM) david: of course I am
(4:37:39 PM) david: It’s completed retarded
(4:38:18 PM) Sola Fide: fine
(4:38:26 PM) Sola Fide: be an empiricist
(4:39:14 PM) david: I don’t think I am

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000005325 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000005305 (4:12:48 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(4:14:27 PM) david: Hi there
(4:14:44 PM) david: religion sucks
(4:15:05 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:15:07 PM) Sola Fide: as if
(4:15:16 PM) david: base of all wars
(4:15:19 PM) david: most terrorism
(4:15:34 PM) david: doesn’t let my best friend who is gay get married
(4:15:42 PM) Sola Fide: what about Pol Pot, Mao Tse Dung and Stalin?
(4:15:43 PM) david: even though he is in love
(4:15:51 PM) david: most*
(4:15:58 PM) david: From a humanist view
(4:16:00 PM) david: War is wrong
(4:16:03 PM) david: from a christian view
(4:16:04 PM) david: its not
(4:16:21 PM) Sola Fide: so the Bible teaches people to murder?
(4:16:27 PM) david: def
(4:16:31 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(4:16:37 PM) Sola Fide: laughable
(4:16:48 PM) david: that’s fine
(4:16:48 PM) Sola Fide: you are attacking christians
(4:16:50 PM) david: We all see it but you
(4:16:53 PM) Sola Fide: not Christianity
(4:16:54 PM) david: Your faith blinds you
(4:16:57 PM) david: and that is okay
(4:17:29 PM) Sola Fide: I’m not interested in atheism because it is so philosophically pathetic
(4:18:00 PM) david: I think christianity is
(4:18:06 PM) david: “We made something up guys.”
(4:18:14 PM) david: Lets believe in it!
(4:18:18 PM) david: I know it sounds crazy
(4:18:21 PM) david: But if we teach our kids
(4:18:23 PM) david: And their kids
(4:18:28 PM) david: Someone might atually buy it someday
(4:18:31 PM) david: What a fool you are
(4:18:44 PM) Sola Fide: you have no arguemtn
(4:18:54 PM) david: Nor do you
(4:18:57 PM) Sola Fide: because atheism boils down to subjectivism
(4:19:03 PM) david: so is yours
(4:19:06 PM) Sola Fide: no my friend
(4:19:07 PM) david: you THINK the bible is real
(4:19:11 PM) Sola Fide: My God created me
(4:19:16 PM) david: YOU don’t know that
(4:19:17 PM) Sola Fide: I did not create Him
(4:19:22 PM) Sola Fide: you TURN that around
(4:19:25 PM) Sola Fide: it’s pathetic
(4:19:41 PM) david: Realism
(4:19:46 PM) david: Looking at the world
(4:19:48 PM) Sola Fide: you have no basis for realism
(4:19:50 PM) david: Being objective
(4:19:51 PM) Sola Fide: it’s pathetic
(4:19:51 PM) david: haha
(4:20:08 PM) Sola Fide: all you can do is try to bring me down with you
(4:20:29 PM) Sola Fide: which is no argument at all
(4:20:30 PM) david: No I am trying to enlighten
(4:20:59 PM) david: to open your eyes to the truth
(4:21:15 PM) Sola Fide: truth doesn’t make sense in atheism
(4:21:36 PM) david: The only reason we can’t argue about this succesfully
(4:21:43 PM) david: Is because you believe that god created you
(4:21:47 PM) david: And you know this inherently
(4:21:57 PM) david: I argue that you don’t know this inherently
(4:22:13 PM) david: So
(4:22:15 PM) david: WHAT IF
(4:22:25 PM) david: We didn’t know God existed inherently
(4:22:27 PM) david: Just WHAT IF
(4:22:38 PM) Sola Fide: whether I believe God or not
(4:22:47 PM) Sola Fide: He is still the creator of all things
(4:22:56 PM) david: No you don’t know about him yet
(4:23:05 PM) david: WHAT IF SITUATION
(4:23:10 PM) Sola Fide: yo
(4:23:20 PM) Sola Fide: what if God already has revealed Himself
(4:31:46 PM) david: ugh
(4:31:48 PM) david: See
(4:31:51 PM) david: Can’t argue with you
(4:32:00 PM) david: You want me to imagine your preconcept
(4:32:05 PM) david: but you won’t even listen to mine
(4:32:41 PM) Sola Fide: I have no respect for atheism
(4:32:47 PM) Sola Fide: but I have respect for you
(4:42:33 PM) david: haha
(4:43:01 PM) david: I have no respect for your lack of conceptualization
(4:43:27 PM) Sola Fide: lack of conceptualization?
(4:44:24 PM) david: You lack the capability to say “I could be wrong, let me try to see it your way.”
(4:44:27 PM) david: You can’t do it.
(4:44:30 PM) david: You can’t even try.
(4:44:53 PM) Sola Fide: yes I’m fallible
(4:45:00 PM) Sola Fide: but I believe I’m correct
(4:45:09 PM) david: But you won’t try another way
(4:45:13 PM) david: YOU won’t even consider it
(4:45:19 PM) david: You have stoppefd
(4:45:23 PM) david: And are closed minded
(4:45:28 PM) david: And distant
(4:45:31 PM) david: From learning
(4:45:32 PM) david: Reason
(4:45:33 PM) david: Logic
(4:45:48 PM) david: Anything of natural dissent
(4:45:51 PM) david: It is unknown
(4:45:59 PM) david: Or unknowable unless it is written
(4:46:07 PM) david: And that to me, is very very scary
(4:48:42 PM) Sola Fide: skepticism I see
(4:48:56 PM) david: and then you blow it off
(4:48:59 PM) david: as me being skeptic
(4:49:13 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:49:16 PM) david:
(4:49:20 PM) david: Typical
(4:49:23 PM) Sola Fide: Atheism is W-R-O-N-G
(4:49:41 PM) david: You don’t know that
(4:49:52 PM) Sola Fide: I’ve demonstrated that
(4:50:02 PM) david: no
(4:50:20 PM) Sola Fide: heh
(4:50:22 PM) Sola Fide: suit yourself
(4:50:37 PM) david: demonstrated implies proven
(4:50:41 PM) david: and you haven’t proven shit

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000010673 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000010653 (3:20:08 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(3:20:24 PM) david: Hey man
(3:20:53 PM) david: If there has to be empirical proof for empircism
(3:20:58 PM) david: there has to be godly proof for god
(3:21:02 PM) david: and there isn’t
(3:21:23 PM) Sola Fide: God justifies Himself
(3:22:20 PM) david: So does empircism
(3:24:01 PM) Sola Fide: empiricism doesn’t even pass it’s own test
(3:24:09 PM) Sola Fide: that’s why it is self-contradictory
(3:24:35 PM) Sola Fide: to ask for godly proof for God is to appeal to some higher God
(3:25:17 PM) david: Yeah god can justify himself
(3:25:21 PM) david: Without any proof
(3:25:28 PM) david: Yet you ask so much more of empiricism
(3:25:30 PM) david: makes no sense
(3:27:30 PM) Sola Fide: it’s simple
(3:27:36 PM) Sola Fide: look for consistency
(3:27:37 PM) Sola Fide:
(3:29:40 PM) david: You are a skeptic
(3:33:03 PM) Sola Fide: nopr
(3:33:09 PM) Sola Fide: straw man
(3:34:14 PM) david: Yeah that’s what your doing to me.
(3:42:08 PM) Sola Fide: no
(3:42:11 PM) Sola Fide: you simply don’t understand
(3:42:20 PM) Sola Fide: you make certain claims
(3:42:27 PM) Sola Fide: but you don’t follow through
(3:43:07 PM) Sola Fide: someone can claim X, but while claiming X they are inconsistent
(3:43:40 PM) Sola Fide: if someone is an empiricist and claims not to be a skeptic
(3:43:47 PM) Sola Fide: I find that grossly inconsistent
(3:43:56 PM) david: Explain how then.
(3:44:27 PM) Sola Fide: I already gave you the easiest way to debunk empiricism
(3:44:43 PM) Sola Fide: any ism isn’t empirical
(3:45:00 PM) david: Any religion isn’t anything
(3:45:04 PM) david: Your just saying shit
(3:45:07 PM) david: It doesn’t MEAN anything
(3:45:13 PM) Sola Fide: besides that empiricism only gives room to particulars
(3:45:16 PM) david: You are laying down the strawman fallacy
(3:45:56 PM) Sola Fide: Any religion isn’t anything???
(3:46:07 PM) david: God isn’t real
(3:46:08 PM) david: So yes
(3:46:12 PM) david: They don’t mean shit
(3:46:28 PM) Sola Fide: yes due to your naturalism
(3:47:28 PM) david: Listen man
(3:47:31 PM) david: You say GOD EXISTS
(3:47:35 PM) david: With no proof
(3:47:46 PM) david: Conversation pretty much over
(3:49:03 PM) Sola Fide: youu beg the question
(3:49:08 PM) Sola Fide: what constitutes proof
(3:49:11 PM) Sola Fide: under what standard
(3:49:20 PM) david: No
(3:49:25 PM) david: I don’t beg the question.
(3:49:26 PM) david: At All
(3:49:41 PM) Sola Fide: the issue is the starting point
(3:49:41 PM) Sola Fide: lame
(3:49:51 PM) david: The issue is
(3:49:54 PM) david: You are an asshole
(3:49:56 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t ask for proof for empiricism?
(3:50:00 PM) david: You tell me I am begging the question
(3:50:10 PM) david: And try to pull off straw man arguments
(3:50:14 PM) david: When that is what your doing
(3:50:14 PM) Sola Fide: ad hominem
(3:50:14 PM) Sola Fide: ah
(3:50:32 PM) Sola Fide: calm down
(3:50:38 PM) Sola Fide: show me the straw
(3:50:41 PM) david: I can’t when you constantly insist to do it.
(3:50:56 PM) david: God, something something something, thereofre God exists.
(3:51:05 PM) Sola Fide: show me proof for empiricism
(3:51:57 PM) david: If you don’t have to show me PROOF of god
(3:52:04 PM) david: I don’t have to show you PROOF of empiricism
(3:52:09 PM) david: This conversation is about god
(3:53:12 PM) Sola Fide: well you’re tohe one asking for proof
(3:53:23 PM) david: Right
(3:53:28 PM) david: Because your saying something exists
(3:53:31 PM) david: Fucking proof it
(3:54:27 PM) Sola Fide: lol
(3:54:31 PM) Sola Fide: proove empiricism
(3:54:39 PM) david: That’s not what this conversation is about
(3:54:42 PM) david: I am okay with being wrong
(3:54:44 PM) david: you aren’t
(3:54:48 PM) david: You are the one saying you know
(3:54:54 PM) Sola Fide: I’m simply asking for consistency
(3:55:03 PM) david: me too
(3:55:10 PM) Sola Fide: oh so you don’t know empircism is true?
(3:55:15 PM) david: ight
(3:55:17 PM) david: right
(3:55:34 PM) Sola Fide: it should be rejected?
(3:56:05 PM) david: We are talking about god.,
(3:56:31 PM) Sola Fide: gotta go do the laundry
(3:56:32 PM) Sola Fide: brb
(4:03:21 PM) Sola Fide: the reason I believe in God is that without him we can’t prove anything
(4:03:38 PM) david: No
(4:03:40 PM) Sola Fide: because God provides laws of logic, morality and nature
(4:03:56 PM) david: Who says there have to be
(4:04:32 PM) Sola Fide: no standard of reasoning without God
(4:04:37 PM) david: yeah
(4:04:42 PM) david: who fuckinbg ever said there had to be
(4:05:05 PM) Sola Fide: is there ever anything that has to be?
(4:05:27 PM) david: agreed
(4:05:29 PM) Sola Fide: are you really pisssed off?
(4:05:30 PM) david: So why decide its god
(4:05:32 PM) david: Yes
(4:05:37 PM) Sola Fide: cause I think you need to calm down
(4:05:37 PM) david: I am
(4:05:59 PM) david: Why should I? YOU are constantly an asshole, who will not listen at all.
(4:06:10 PM) Sola Fide: Inever insulted you
(4:06:14 PM) Sola Fide: no ad hominems
(4:06:30 PM) david: That’s because when you say “Conside this…”
(4:06:32 PM) david: I do
(4:06:35 PM) david: You won’t EVER DO IT
(4:06:55 PM) Sola Fide: so I Have to accept your viewpoint?
(4:07:11 PM) david: You don’t have to accept it
(4:07:18 PM) david: But you are close-minded
(4:07:22 PM) david: you won’t even consider it
(4:07:32 PM) david: And because your basic concept it so stagnant
(4:07:39 PM) david: Its impossible to have logical discourse
(4:07:43 PM) Sola Fide: so I have to accept atheism on equal footing
(4:07:44 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:08:03 PM) david: when I say
(4:08:06 PM) david: consider this…
(4:08:16 PM) david: and you say, “no god did that.”
(4:08:24 PM) david: it leaves no room
(4:08:37 PM) Sola Fide: I can’t even see atheism as promoting logic
(4:08:58 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:09:17 PM) Sola Fide: atheism and christian theism are grossly incompatible
(4:09:30 PM) Sola Fide: that shouldn’t be a surprise
(4:09:47 PM) Sola Fide: we don’t have the same starting point
(4:09:58 PM) david: The problem is you think every human has a precognition of god inherently
(4:10:00 PM) david: and I don’t
(4:10:03 PM) david: right?
(4:10:12 PM) Sola Fide: yes through creation
(4:10:22 PM) david: So until you can imagine people not
(4:10:27 PM) david: This conversation cannot work
(4:10:44 PM) Sola Fide: imagine people not ???
(4:10:51 PM) david: I DON’T HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
(4:10:56 PM) david: I was not born knowing god existed
(4:10:59 PM) Sola Fide: you actually do
(4:11:05 PM) david: You think that
(4:11:09 PM) david: And can’t imagine anything else
(4:11:09 PM) Sola Fide: you borrow from the Christian worldview
(4:11:10 PM) Sola Fide:
(4:11:44 PM) Sola Fide: things like the laws of logic or morality make sense in christianity
(4:11:50 PM) Sola Fide: they don’t in atheism
(4:11:56 PM) david: They are arbitrary in atheism
(4:12:05 PM) david: That makes PERFECT sense
(4:12:06 PM) Sola Fide: then why be a “logical
(4:12:08 PM) Sola Fide: atheist
(4:12:09 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(4:12:32 PM) david: as we evolve so does our logic
(4:12:53 PM) Sola Fide: then you can’t debate
(4:13:08 PM) david: Seems like im doing just fine
(4:13:10 PM) david: Fuck you.
(4:13:16 PM) david: You are an asshole
(4:13:21 PM) Sola Fide: if logic is arbitrary
(4:13:21 PM) david: Stop doing that
(4:13:32 PM) Sola Fide: there is no room for rational discourse
(4:13:36 PM) david: Music tatse is arbitrary right?
(4:13:38 PM) david: AM I RIGHT?
(4:13:55 PM) Sola Fide: I believe that beauty is objective
(4:14:08 PM) david: …
(4:14:49 PM) Sola Fide: well I gotta go
(4:14:54 PM) Sola Fide: you have nice weekend
(4:15:04 PM) david: Yeah have fun being an asshole all weekend
(4:15:18 PM) Sola Fide: I won’t take that personally
(4:15:33 PM) Sola Fide: I’m actually praying for your conversion
(4:15:51 PM) david: God luck
(4:15:55 PM) david: pray doesn’t work
(4:16:03 PM) david: Ill pray over this dead dog all night too
(4:16:10 PM) david: Maybe that will do something for you
(4:16:21 PM) Sola Fide: the problem with atheists isn’t on the intellectual side
(4:16:33 PM) david: ?
(4:16:46 PM) Sola Fide: it’s really about self deception
(4:16:48 PM) Sola Fide: and bias
(4:16:59 PM) david: You are the delusional one
(4:17:04 PM) david: Invented shit that does not exists
(4:17:12 PM) david: I am the non-bias observer
(4:18:02 PM) Sola Fide: you think you’re the final arbiter
(4:18:10 PM) Sola Fide: I believe God is
(4:18:35 PM) david: I don’t think ANYONE is the arbiter
(4:19:25 PM) Sola Fide: there is no way to correct one self without any standards of reasoning from God
(4:19:39 PM) david: there you go again
(4:19:47 PM) david: being an asshole
(4:20:04 PM) Sola Fide: have a nice day
(4:20:06 PM) david: You can’t use circular logic, but its totally okay when I do it every sentence
(4:20:25 PM) Sola Fide: bye
(4:20:29 PM) david: Bye dude
(4:21:03 PM) Sola Fide: everyone engages in circular reasoning
(4:21:05 PM) Sola Fide: I can spare 2 min
(4:21:14 PM) david: I don’t
(4:21:26 PM) david: Just because everyone does it
(4:21:28 PM) david: doesn’t make it ok
(4:21:42 PM) Sola Fide: you don’t have a starting point?
(4:21:57 PM) david: nope
(4:22:07 PM) david: But I don’t mat6ter
(4:22:09 PM) david: You matter
(4:22:11 PM) david: And god matters
(4:23:29 PM) Sola Fide: no theory of knowledge ?
(4:23:42 PM) david: I DON’T MATTER
(4:23:46 PM) david: Your opinions
(4:23:49 PM) david: We are talking about god
(4:23:55 PM) Sola Fide: yes
(4:23:58 PM) Sola Fide: I start with Him
(4:24:05 PM) david: For no reason
(4:24:17 PM) Sola Fide: what would be a good reason?
(4:24:29 PM) david: Anything…
(4:24:41 PM) Sola Fide: it be arbitrary?
(4:26:16 PM) david: ?
(4:28:03 PM) Sola Fide: you said anything
(4:28:12 PM) Sola Fide: sounds arbitrary
(4:30:37 PM) Sola Fide: well chat with you next week
(4:30:39 PM) Sola Fide: bye
(4:30:41 PM) david: later

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000002248 StartFragment:0000000127 EndFragment:0000002228 (1:48:07 PM) Sola Fide: hi
(1:48:12 PM) david: hi
(1:48:37 PM) david: if god is real, and he is such a dickweed
(1:48:41 PM) david: why should I believe in him
(1:49:09 PM) Sola Fide: it’s not a matter of preference
(1:49:19 PM) david: I mean
(1:49:24 PM) david: why should I worship him
(1:49:31 PM) david: kay
(1:49:34 PM) david: I changed my mind
(1:49:36 PM) david: I believe in god
(1:49:42 PM) david: I believe he is all powerful
(1:49:42 PM) Sola Fide: because God is the creator of all things
(1:49:52 PM) Sola Fide: are you serious?
(1:49:55 PM) david: But I think he isn’t worth my worship.
(1:50:01 PM) david: I think he sucks at being the creator
(1:50:37 PM) Sola Fide: why he isn’t worthy?
(1:53:22 PM) david: I just don’t think he did a good job
(1:53:36 PM) david: I could have done
(1:55:10 PM) Sola Fide: why a bad job?
(1:55:24 PM) david: because I can imagine doing a better one
(1:59:28 PM) Sola Fide: so you’re complaining because there is evil and suffering in the world
(1:59:54 PM) david: It doesn’t matter what I complain about
(2:00:00 PM) david: The fact that I can complain
(2:00:05 PM) david: And can see how I could have done it better
(2:00:10 PM) david: Makes god suck completely
(2:00:20 PM) Sola Fide: how could you have done better
(2:00:22 PM) Sola Fide: ?
(2:01:18 PM) david: Not make the world allude to things that don’t exists
(2:01:21 PM) david: Like evolution
(2:01:34 PM) david: Make things generally cooler
(2:01:36 PM) david: And more awesome
(2:01:38 PM) david: And bigger
(2:01:57 PM) david: Allow us to easily explore the grandness of the universe
(2:02:26 PM) david: Not give us the functionality to think like an atheist
(2:02:45 PM) david: Make the fact that God created the universe omnipresent
(2:07:31 PM) Sola Fide: something created isn’t eternal
(2:07:37 PM) Sola Fide: by definition
(2:08:25 PM) Sola Fide: God creating man who can’t sin?
(2:13:40 PM) david: I never said anything about ternal
(2:13:42 PM) david: eternal